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In fewer words, the difference is one between approaching the world as it is, and approching the world as one wishes it were or had been. Reason versus emotion. Intellect versus imagination. Take your pick, but realize that one approach is more challenging and demanding than the other, and there will always be those who turn back once encountering challenge and demand...
that is ironic considering that it is the fiscal conservatives who are asking this administration to look at the economy objectively. you CANNOT fix a debt problem by adding more debt, and we are starting to see the consequences of trying to fix a debt problem by adding more debt.
if you take from the private sector to give to the government sector, you lose revenue since the government sector is not, by nature, revenue generating.
In fewer words, the difference is one between approaching the world as it is, and approching the world as one wishes it were or had been. Reason versus emotion. Intellect versus imagination. Take your pick, but realize that one approach is more challenging and demanding than the other, and there will always be those who turn back once encountering challenge and demand...
Well said and can be seen with the challenges of real health reform now needed in America.
What's most ironic about this thread is that I've been pretty impressed with how he has followed through on what he said he would do during the campaign. From ramping up the war in Afghanistan to health care to refocusing international relations on diplomacy to using the levers of government to stabilize the economy, he's been pretty consistent with his campaign promises.
Something tells me that our friend from El Paso was never really on board his vision from the beginning. Why do I think this? Anyone who uses the phrase "the left" is clearly using it to establish them as a political "other.
Totally agree with you.
Obama is doing exactly what he said he would do. The problem is that the right wing hate campaign has scared many voters and the Venom that Obama is now encountering is not caused by facts but fiction and lies produced by anti-Obama media and slimeballs like Hannity, Limbaugh, Rush, Beck. Morris, and co. They do NOT want to see change as they are doing extremely well as things are now...no one is going to rain on their parade.
that is ironic considering that it is the fiscal conservatives who are asking this administration to look at the economy objectively. you CANNOT fix a debt problem by adding more debt, and we are starting to see the consequences of trying to fix a debt problem by adding more debt.
We are not trying to fix a debt problem. We are trying to fix a demand problem brought about by the collapse of efficient credit markets that resulted from a long series of failures by some Republicans to keep the store from being sacked and plundered by some other Republicans. As the result, we have seen shrinking consumer demand and therefore shrinking business demand on a global level. Under both Bush and Obama (and in every other developed country on earth), the government is seeking to create demand and provide liquidity to replace those that have gone missing. To raise the complaint that you did is to miss the point of what is going on entirely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy
if you take from the private sector to give to the government sector, you lose revenue since the government sector is not, by nature, revenue generating.
The last point is pure counter-factual fluff, but the larger point is that you can hardly complain about all this deficit spending while at the same time complaining that the public sector is taking from the private sector. The two complaints contradict each other. Maybe you should go think your way through all these things once again. The first time or whatever just hasn't worked out all that well.
We are not trying to fix a debt problem. We are trying to fix a demand problem brought about by the collapse of efficient credit markets that resulted from a long series of failures by some Republicans to keep the store from being sacked and plundered by some other Republicans. As the result, we have seen shrinking consumer demand and therefore shrinking business demand on a global level. Under both Bush and Obama (and in every other developed country on earth), the government is seeking to create demand and provide liquidity to replace those that have gone missing. To raise the complaint that you did is to miss the point of what is going on entirely.
The last point is pure counter-factual fluff, but the larger point is that you can hardly complain about all this deficit spending while at the same time complaining that the public sector is taking from the private sector. The two complaints contradict each other. Maybe you should go think your way through all these things once again. The first time or whatever just hasn't worked out all that well.
i would say that we are about to find out if your assumption that this is not a debt problem is correct or not, since governments cannot artificially create demand indefinitely.
They do NOT want to see change as they are doing extremely well as things are now...no one is going to rain on their parade.
It's an age old story. The exploiters play on the fears, insecurities, and prejudices of those being exploited in order to convince them to submit to -- and even favor -- yet more exploitation. Quite a remarkable process, all in all. More remarkable to me though, is that while there is a large class that COULD engage in such exploitation, only a subset from that group actually chooses to do so. The rest find it repugnant and turn away, while those being exploited seem to hold them in contempt for that choice. Go figure. Some weird form of Stockholm Syndrome perhaps...
Look at this with unbiased minds.
It isn't Obama who has changed his mind on his promises as to what he will do once elected...it is the Voters. He had a HUGE mandate to get a Public health option but because of right wing media lies and propoganda, many have now become fearful and are having a complete turn around in what they want. This is why Obama must carry on with his original pledge and ignore the demands of the "Fickle" public. If Presidents went by what the media driven public wanted we would not be able to keep up with the "flip flopping". No one seems to remember when Bush signed the original bailout against the wishes of the vast majority of America. The bailout is working despite the anti bailout feelings. NO we are not good barometers as to the best action but simply the mouthpieces of self interest and biased media.
Totally agree with you.
Obama is doing exactly what he said he would do. The problem is that the right wing hate campaign has scared many voters and the Venom that Obama is now encountering is not caused by facts but fiction and lies produced by anti-Obama media and slimeballs like Hannity, Limbaugh, Rush, Beck. Morris, and co. They do NOT want to see change as they are doing extremely well as things are now...no one is going to rain on their parade.
I don't know whether people didn't actually listen to what he said he would do or have just gotten their information through a biased filter, but everytime I read someone say that we were duped and deceived by "hope and change" (they always include that phrase) I grow eager for clarification.
He's doing what he said he would do, and the American people decided that we needed a little more government intervention at this point. We had 30 years of conservative rule that was doing well for a while but went too far in its liberation of markets and tax kickbacks to the point that it destabilized our economy. Not really rocket science.
I don't know whether people didn't actually listen to what he said he would do or have just gotten their information through a biased filter, but everytime I read someone say that we were duped and deceived by "hope and change" (they always include that phrase) I grow eager for clarification.
He's doing what he said he would do, and the American people decided that we needed a little more government intervention at this point. We had 30 years of conservative rule that was doing well for a while but went too far in its liberation of markets and tax kickbacks to the point that it destabilized our economy. Not really rocket science.
You have it in a nutshell.
Not only do you have the media fuelled anti Obama brigade there are the racist nutjobs too. If ANYONE believes that for a number of people, Obama'a Colour does not come into play ...then i have a bridge to sell to you.
i would say that we are about to find out if your assumption that this is not a debt problem is correct or not, since governments cannot artificially create demand indefinitely.
This does not address any of the serious misconceptions that were pointed out in your earlier posts, but in seeking to change the subject, you've revealed another. There is nothing artificial about the demand that the government is currently providing, and it can be provided for quite a long time if that is necessary. The demand that you create, for instance, by spending the extra Make Work Pay dollars that have been showing up in your paycheck since March is indistiguishable from the demand created by spending any of the other dollars in your paycheck. Similarly, the demand created by spending expanded unemployment or food stamp benefits is indistiguishable from other demand. The whole concept of artificial demand is in fact suspect from the get-go. It seems that you have some rather peculiar ideas about what an economy is and how one operates. Again, you might want to think some of these things through from the top one more time...
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