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It should be both and depending on the crime I believe rehab is in order. Programs to help people.
People dont want to be in jail but people most goes to jail to try and support themselves or our of passion or addiction. We need to punish them and deal with what has caused them to commit the crime and help them once they are out. To be able to get a job to not return. If someone can earn a decent living to provide for their family chances are they wont commit crimes that they do to try and support their family.
Rehabilitation is honestly a myth. That doesn't mean that some people who go to prison, don't in fact recognize their faults and by choice choose to change. That however is not the process. You can't force someone to rehabilitate, they either decide to on their own or they do not. I went through the police academy, took many classes in criminal justice and of all my professors (who were retired police officers, correctional officers, and public administration officials), none of them believed that force rehabilitation worked. In fact, all of them were extremely adamant that it did not.
Considering that, I would have to say that it is simply a consequence to their actions (punishment) and at the same time a measure to remove them from the society that they prey on.
Your *professors* were ALL retired police officers, correctional officers, and public administration officials and THEY ALL apparently did not support rehabilitation programs! Duh!! OF COURSE THEY DIDN'T. Rehabilitation programs cost money, funding which might go to the rehab programs and not to THEIR pet projects and salary raises. Seriously, nobody is suggesting *forced rehabilitation*. We're talking about providing rehabilitation programs for inmates so that they will have WORK SKILLS and better LIFE SKILLS when they are released so they just MIGHT be able to get employment and earn money to physically support themselves. Life Skills? What would that be? Maybe anger management, maybe learning a bit of impulse control, learning better ways of dealing with relationships, learning to accept the rewards that come from delayed gratification like perhaps saving money. Yes, individuals make choices; however, they also need education which will help them after they are released.
I honestly have no real idea why they commit them. I have seen reasoning from them that ranges from completely sadistic to incomprehensible. The reasons vary and often fit no pattern, no logic, no organized method to which can be calculated.
As for "nobody will hire you", that is a fallacy. convicts get work all the time. Like I said, many attempts have been made with the private sector to "help" paroles get jobs when they get out.
There is one thing you keep failing to assess as part of the blame and that is them. A lot of the time, the issue is simply... them. Not the "system", not the "lack of options" or any other issue. It is simply that they have not changed. You can dress a pig up, make it smell nice, but in the end it is still a pig. Getting a college degree does not make you marketable, it does not make you civil, it does not make you viable, it certainly does not "rehabilitate" you. A crook with a degree is just a more knowledgeable crook.
This is the center of the entire argument. You keep suggesting that it is some functionary, some certain thing that the system can do to force change when the only person who can change is the person themselves. If a person chooses to change, none of the small road blocks that you suggest will stop them from achieving their success. It certainly has not for those who have achieved it.
There is no excuse for them, rehabilitation as a means to force change has and never will work. When a person is willing to change, they will and they will succeed on their own merits. Until then, the will not change no matter how many times you prod them.
Work in the system sometime, your opinion may change when you see the reality of those in it.
Biased much? A pig is still a pig you say. Hmmm. Interesting indoctrination you've received there.
As I said, it is a pointless venture, it is speculation that serves no purpose other than to comfort ones ego. There is no common reason to crime, to believe so is to claim one understands humanity and that is an obvious fallacy.
I knew one that started out as a grunt in construction and ended up being the foreman for the company he worked for. Another became a manager of retail store, another went on to start his own auto shop, and yet another became a social worker. Heck, look at Dog the Bounty Hunter, he found a means to make a living and he was convicted of murder.
As decent pay is concerned, it is relative to ones lifestyle, where they live, etc... Some can live on much less than others due to their responsible use of money, others not so much. So attempting to hard set a number that is acceptable is honestly futile. In the end, this is the result of ones actions. The level of their obstacle is also often dependent on the level of their crime. If one is truly rehabilitated, they accept responsibility for their actions and attempt to succeed the best they can.
How is it that she was extorted through violence to write these checks and yet convicted of the crime of writing them? Was this not brought up in court? I mean no disrespect, but there is always a "detail" to these stories which places them in perspective. I am not saying you are wrong, rather this issue should have been remedied in court. No person can be charged with a crime if they are held to the action under the threat of violence UNLESS it can be shown that there was a reasonable alternative to which did not place them in the immediate threat of violence. As I said, there is always a detail which places the issue into a proper perspective.
They have been in many states at different times (and still do in many cases) and it has shown to fail consistently. I have seen numerous businesses place their reputation on the line to form an agreement for a parole program with the prisons only to find their name drawn through the mud, theft of their property, and in some cases violence to their workers. It has been tried over and over and while some aspects of them can at times show results with a select few, most of them result in complete failure.
Okay. Please show us some data to support your contention that rehab programs and efforts to help released inmates fail consistently. Find some studies which support your position. Certainly there have to be legitimate stats out there which contain objective information and numbers to support your position if it is true and not just anecdotal.
It is frustrating that so many owners of rental properties do not care if a felony by an applicant was committed 2 years ago or 20 years ago. I have come across many people who were convicted for pot possession 15+ years ago and never had any other runs with the law and were regular hard working people but nobody would rent to them. I think that is really crazy!
It really is.
We really need to stop saying that they pay their debt by doing time because they pay that debt for life.
How do people expect people to be upstanding citizens when they are treated like second class citizens.
I thought of this due to a post by Hoarfrost in my "hate crimes" thread; he believes that prison is for rehabilitation purposes, where as I believe it is for punishment. What say you?
I voted punishment because my uncles were both in prison and they were ok for a few months after release but worse after being out for a while ..at least that's what my father said because i never saw them growing up because they were in and out of prison for drugs and batteries ect...and the statistics show that most former inmates return to prison so there is really no rehabilitation but for the few that are lucky
As I said, it is a pointless venture, it is speculation that serves no purpose other than to comfort ones ego. There is no common reason to crime, to believe so is to claim one understands humanity and that is an obvious fallacy.
I knew one that started out as a grunt in construction and ended up being the foreman for the company he worked for. Another became a manager of retail store, another went on to start his own auto shop, and yet another became a social worker. Heck, look at Dog the Bounty Hunter, he found a means to make a living and he was convicted of murder.
As decent pay is concerned, it is relative to ones lifestyle, where they live, etc... Some can live on much less than others due to their responsible use of money, others not so much. So attempting to hard set a number that is acceptable is honestly futile. In the end, this is the result of ones actions. The level of their obstacle is also often dependent on the level of their crime. If one is truly rehabilitated, they accept responsibility for their actions and attempt to succeed the best they can.
How is it that she was extorted through violence to write these checks and yet convicted of the crime of writing them? Was this not brought up in court? I mean no disrespect, but there is always a "detail" to these stories which places them in perspective. I am not saying you are wrong, rather this issue should have been remedied in court. No person can be charged with a crime if they are held to the action under the threat of violence UNLESS it can be shown that there was a reasonable alternative to which did not place them in the immediate threat of violence. As I said, there is always a detail which places the issue into a proper perspective.
They have been in many states at different times (and still do in many cases) and it has shown to fail consistently. I have seen numerous businesses place their reputation on the line to form an agreement for a parole program with the prisons only to find their name drawn through the mud, theft of their property, and in some cases violence to their workers. It has been tried over and over and while some aspects of them can at times show results with a select few, most of them result in complete failure.
Yes it was brought up she was beat what do you think kept her from going to prison? She was facing 5 years for each check she wrote and she didnt step foot in prison because she was able to prove the abuse. But yet she is stuck with a felony on her record and living with family because apartment complexes do background checks and dont really care that its been 15 years and she hasnt committed another crime or that she only committed that one because she didnt want to get hit anymore. But to you she doesnt deserve a better life
I am now done with this because I have watched her struggle with life and getting over the abuse and deal with being a felon. I have watched the affects of background checks on people trying to improve their life and be productive citizens.
Maybe you should do the same and you might have a bit more compassion for those that do want to do the right thing.
Your *professors* were ALL retired police officers, correctional officers, and public administration officials and THEY ALL apparently did not support rehabilitation programs! Duh!! OF COURSE THEY DIDN'T. Rehabilitation programs cost money, funding which might go to the rehab programs and not to THEIR pet projects and salary raises. Seriously, nobody is suggesting *forced rehabilitation*. We're talking about providing rehabilitation programs for inmates so that they will have WORK SKILLS and better LIFE SKILLS when they are released so they just MIGHT be able to get employment and earn money to physically support themselves. Life Skills? What would that be? Maybe anger management, maybe learning a bit of impulse control, learning better ways of dealing with relationships, learning to accept the rewards that come from delayed gratification like perhaps saving money. Yes, individuals make choices; however, they also need education which will help them after they are released.
Your objection is based on assumptions of their intent. I spoke to them directly in an environment specifically built to discuss the details of the systems. They explained their reasoning and gave numerous examples of its failures. I understand you believe otherwise and that is fine, but approaching the argument with fallacious support makes your argument invalid.
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