Portland vs Salt Lake - especially air quality and making friends (Eugene: fit in, transplants)

[waterwagen]

Hi all,

I'm currently in Salt Lake, having fallen in love with the outdoors here and finally made the move West (from the DC area) that my wife and I had dreamed of.

We like it here (especially the outdoors, the small town feel of SLC, low humidity, and the low cost of living, especially housing) but are considering whether this is where we want to buy a house and settle down. We've thought about Portland also (I know probably a weird comparison to many as there are clearly some very big differences between the two cities) and would like any opinions from those familiar with both. Factors such as the beer & coffee, outdoors, affordable housing, and public transit are big pluses for us about Portland.

Our two main problems with Salt Lake are 1) the smog that shows up once it gets cool to cold out, 2) it seems to be taking a lot longer to make friends than it did where we are from.

How does Portland compare to Salt Lake, especially in those two areas? I'm aware there are some air quality issues in Portland, but my impression is that it's still quite a bit bet better than here. I've also done some reading in the forums and have learned some about Portland - including some people's impression that it has an unfriendly/reserved attitude.

Our family (four kids) is pretty adaptable, so even though the two cities seem to have pretty different cultures, that probably wouldn't be a problem for us. Most important are the items I mentioned as positives and negatives about Salt Lake. Plus finding a software development job, but there seem to be a good number of those there, so that doesn't seem to be a roadblock.

I know this is somewhat broad, but thanks for any thoughts you have.

[Nell Plotts]

With children in school it will be easy to meet other parents. I have no doubt that your calendar will quickly fill. Friendships develop from common interests and values but culturally we are reserved. The advantage in that is that people don't get into your business. Since you live in Salt Lake.. I observe that members of the Mormon Church are kept very busy by their congregation.

We rarely have air pollution issues, the Columbia River Gorge produces an almost constant breeze. Along that line Troutdale can get very windy.

[t.dig]

It may seem strange that I'm replying to your post, since I've never technically lived in Portland, but I live in Salt Lake (Sugarhouse area), and I think I have a little insight. My husband was transferred to Portland last year to work on the phoenix-like I-5 bridge (locals know what I'm talking about). Because we have young children, he moved to Portland while I stayed in Salt Lake for the school year, albeit to research every nook and cranny of our new city. I researched every school, compared stats of every neighborhood (we wanted a similar neighborhood to 15th/15th / Harvard-Yale), investigated the best pubs, coffee houses, parks, grocery stores, you name it. I was a walking encyclopedia of Portland. I then spent two weeks with a realtor in Portland, driving up and down every street. I really got a feel for it, and could certainly identify which neighborhoods would be most similar to our very cool, progressive, and friendly Salt Lake neighborhood. The people in Portland were extremely friendly, but housing was surprisingly expensive. When school ended, we packed up our house and hit the road. Of course, the day we arrived the bridge project was shut down and his office closed the next day. Thus, back to Salt Lake we turned.

Soooo, what did I learn? Eastmoreland is similar to Harvard-Yale with lots of English Tudors, large trees, and a great public school. We also liked Sellwood for its walkability and Sugarhouse-esque feel. SW is like Olympus Cove or Foothill, with lots of mid-century moderns. Great schools. NE/Hollywood was cool, another Sugarhouse-like neighborhood. I loved the Craftsman homes. Downtown was beautiful, lots of art and public spaces. We were delighted by the Chinese garden hidden right in the middle of the city. NW 23rd has an Avenues-type feel. We also looked at Vancouver because the project was based there, and it has an Ogden feel to me. I never visited, but I got the feeling Lake Oswego was a cooler Draper, with the best public schools. We did spend a week in Portland with our kids (2,4,6), and they were over-the-moon with the outdoor accessibility - easy hikes, the zoo, the proximity to the beach (Goonie beach!), the waterfront...it was a great fit for our family and we were sad our introduction to our new city ended abruptly. I've also lived in San Francisco and Los Angeles, and I felt that Portland would have been our favorite stop. The weather was sublime, but we were there during July. Lots of people told me that the nine months of rain would wear me down. What was surprising is that Portland and Salt Lake seemed similar in a big, cool brother/wannabe little brother kind of way. Imagine if the pulsing current of talent and art which thrives in Salt Lake could operate freely without the fear, ignorance, and roadblocks the establishment throws in their path, and you have Portland. Salt Lake City could be Portland in 10-20 years, but it would take a significant ideological shift.

I wish you luck with your decision. I kind of feel Salt Lake, with the massive influx of non-natives, vibrant art scene, and the inevitability of being dragged into the 21st century, will be a vibrant city someday. Portland is fabulous now. It depends on how long you want to wait.

[EnricoV]

Yeah, but Salt Lake is less than 50% LDS these days. Though that does cut down significantly the "friend" potential. Because you're right. I think that most people who are very involved in whatever church they belong to, tend to socialize there.

[bler144]

Originally Posted by Nell Plotts

We rarely have air pollution issues, the Columbia River Gorge produces an almost constant breeze. Along that line Troutdale can get very windy.

That's not quite true, it's harder to perceive in some parts of town, but Portland ranks fairly poor on several DEQ air metrics (bottom 25 for some metals, not far behind for ground level ozone). Where I live in east Portland, I'd say I'm conscious of bad air about 10% of the time [though it may be bad enough to be harmful more frequently].

That said, we're not in a bowl like SLC, so it's rare to have extended periods of stagnant unhealthful air, particularly this winter when the wind is so...generous. The Willamette Valley has had at least one bad inversion this winter - I was down there a few weeks ago and Eugene was graced with a nice hazy smog.

I don't think the SLC/Pdx comparison is odd - it's one I've looked at as well. SLC seems to have a slight edge in affordability, Pdx has a moderate edge in air quality. And of course there are at least some moderate cultural differences. SLC has the Temple; Pdx has a vegan stripclub. In either case you might find the locals hard to fit in with.

The reality is at older ages it can be hard to really make friends anywhere you move - people are much more established in their existing friendships and often pressed for time to let new people in. Having kids is potentially an advantage, though you don't really have full say in the matter - you end up having to associate with the parents of the kids your kid likes, not necessarily the parents you would have chosen as friends yourself.

[turquoise1]

Great post, bler. Yes, the wind has been... assertive.

[Minervah]

We do have some air pollution problems. This last fall and present winter has been particularity bad for people with severe respiratory problems due to air inversions and stagnant air but they probably don't affect those who do not have these conditions. I found this doing a web search regarding some steps being taken to address the issue.


Portland's dirty secret: its air quality | OregonLive.com

[hamellr]

This is totally anecdotal, but I have had to spend a bit of time in Salt Lake City over the past few years. The first time I went about a decade ago things seemed very reserved. Shopping malls were eerily quite. People generally unfriendly to the point of not making eye contract.

Now it seems that the friendlier people in that city are all transplants. There still seems to me that large core of LDS/old timers who still avoid eye contact and don't talk to you at all unless they have too. Even when saying "Hi," or "Good Morning." This is based merely on one conversation with a client who pointed out that all the "unfriendly" people in her office were LDS members.

Compared to Portland, transplants start out pretty out going, but tend cool off pretty quickly. Not to the point of out right ignoring you, but possibly to the so called "Seattle Freeze" level. Few people are out right rude, and are willing to start a conversation. They're just not willing to sustain it through first contact and instantly bond for life over minutiae commonality. Nor do they really want to hear intimate details about your life, children, religion or glandular problem.

[tigerlily]

Originally Posted by hamellr

This is totally anecdotal, but I have had to spend a bit of time in Salt Lake City over the past few years. The first time I went about a decade ago things seemed very reserved. Shopping malls were eerily quite. People generally unfriendly to the point of not making eye contract.

Now it seems that the friendlier people in that city are all transplants. There still seems to me that large core of LDS/old timers who still avoid eye contact and don't talk to you at all unless they have too. Even when saying "Hi," or "Good Morning." This is based merely on one conversation with a client who pointed out that all the "unfriendly" people in her office were LDS members.

This is true. We moved from Dallas to SLC in 1993 when my husband was transferred. I was used to the friendly atmosphere I experienced when I worked in downtown Dallas. The men in downtown SLC looked at me like was a woman of ill repute when I made eye contact. We also lived in Sugar House. I was so glad we moved to Portland.

[waterwagen]

Thanks for all your comments. I have heard SLC has changed quite a bit in the last 20 years, and especially after the Olympics in 2002. I think if we stay here long term we would want to be relatively close to the downtown, which is actually pretty diverse. There are actually a decent number of transplants here. On my 12 person team at work, only 2 are from the area.

Like I said, we do like it here in many ways . The air quality this winter has just been such a downer. And the friends issue, though that is hard to judge as we ARE in a completely new place - and at an older age it can be harder to make friends as some have pointed out. Plus Oregon looks so beautiful (more like our home state of Virginia) and the milder winter weather while still having the nice, sunny summers sounds nice.

The political leanings would certainly be a lot different, but we don't really fit into either camp anyway.