A toll needs to be placed on I-5 and I-205 South (Portland: construction, to live)

[Nell Plotts]

Honest, it doesn't matter whether the toll is north or south bound. The traffic volume is the same both directions.

[Leisesturm]

AndyAMG and oregonwoodsmoke make excellent points in this thread. The fairness aspect has to be considered. Should be considered. I am a little scandalized that a concept like fairness can be dispensed with so easily by otherwise rational people. Come on. If you want a bridge over the Columbia so badly, build it and then only allow people with Oregon plates to use it... ... that would at least be fair. That's what states rights gets you. IMO we shouldn't be arguing this because a bridge would be recognized as being necessary for everyone and the money would not be an issue. I am not understanding how France can build a state of the art long span suspension bridge for 20M and Oregon and Washington need a billion and more likely 2 billion to build an intra-urban short span structure. What am I missing?

New York City's bridges and tunnels are 19th Century structures. The tolls on them are for revenue. They have been paid for millions of times over. Thanks to EZ Pass, raising tolls is as simple as getting a programmer in to click some check boxes. Too easy. Tolls on some structures are now $10... one way! Imagine a $20 round trip everyday just in tolls over the Columbia. I'd give it two decades to happen if EZ-Pass was allowed to happen here. I lived in Staten Island for awhile before leaving New York and I drove in those days. The resident discount on the Verezzano Bridge toll was huge. It made the difference between being able to afford living there and not being able to afford living there. It was wrong though. That kind of in your face opportunism should never be allowed to see the light of reality.

H

[bler144]

Originally Posted by oregonwoodsmoke

You Portlanders who are so keen for tolls on I-5 are depending upon I-5 to receive all the goods that you use and need to live. So place the tolls and be prepared for the cost of your groceries, your furniture, your medication, and your gasoline to go up.

That's not how it works.

In the tally of manufacture and shipping costs, even a $5 toll on a truck full of goods is at best a few pennies at the unit level, and in most cases much less than that. It's not like Best Buy is moving one Playstation disc at a time over the bridge.

A 30 minute delay in delivery will impact the delivery cost about the same. Worst case scenario for costs would be toll + congestion or toll service delays, but in terms of one or the other you get down to some pretty marginal differences in cost depending on exactly how much toll vs. how much congestion you're talking.

[eric351982]

I know people who think they should close the bridges altogether and build a new one way over to the east by camas. A two-lane toll bridge.

[Nell Plotts]

Yes and others want a span that hops over Multnomah Channel, upstream end of Sauvie Island, down stream end of Hayden Island, hence to Vancouver. The issue with that route (ignoring the approach from the OR side) is that the soils there are sedimentary and would shake like jello during an earth quake plus the span would need to be high enough to let ships pass.

[urbanlife78]

Originally Posted by Nell Plotts

Yes and others want a span that hops over Multnomah Channel, upstream end of Sauvie Island, down stream end of Hayden Island, hence to Vancouver. The issue with that route (ignoring the approach from the OR side) is that the soils there are sedimentary and would shake like jello during an earth quake plus the span would need to be high enough to let ships pass.

That would be a massive piece of engineering. Would be cool to see done, but the price tag would be mind boggling.

[Nell Plotts]

When I-217 was built I recall an executive expounding on the 'fact' that it would be extended over the hill and north to Vancouver. As the daughter of a civil engineer I just nodded and said, "That would be interesting." Can you imagine cost of the cut through the Tualatin Ridge, let alone the bridge supports?

Of course, in those days the OR Highway designers were a headstrong lot.

[urbanlife78]

Originally Posted by Nell Plotts

When I-217 was built I recall an executive expounding on the 'fact' that it would be extended over the hill and north to Vancouver. As the daughter of a civil engineer I just nodded and said, "That would be interesting." Can you imagine cost of the cut through the Tualatin Ridge, let alone the bridge supports?

Of course, in those days the OR Highway designers were a headstrong lot.

The only Westside Highway I could imagine seeing built would be a 205 connection to a 105 through Tualatin to Hillsboro route where it would basically bypass Tigard, Beaverton, and Aloha. But to be honest, I don't have the slightest idea if that kind of route would even pick up any commuters that would use it. Personally I would rather see the MAX expanded on the Westside with more urban town center style developments going on around each station, as well as connecting rail lines to major business hubs on the Westside.

[ormari]

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

New York City's bridges and tunnels are 19th Century structures. The tolls on them are for revenue. They have been paid for millions of times over. Thanks to EZ Pass, raising tolls is as simple as getting a programmer in to click some check boxes. Too easy. Tolls on some structures are now $10... one way! Imagine a $20 round trip everyday just in tolls over the Columbia. I'd give it two decades to happen if EZ-Pass was allowed to happen here. I lived in Staten Island for awhile before leaving New York and I drove in those days. The resident discount on the Verezzano Bridge toll was huge. It made the difference between being able to afford living there and not being able to afford living there. It was wrong though. That kind of in your face opportunism should never be allowed to see the light of reality.

Right. Be careful about emulating the East Coast Tollway Octopus.

If you put a toll on I-5 to pay for the bridge, you have to craft the law authorizing the toll very carefully such that once the bridge is paid for, the toll comes off. In Massachusetts, the Mass Turnpike (I-90) has been paid for long ago, and the tolls were supposed to come off when the debt was paid. But instead of removing the tolls, they continued to milk the turnpike to pay for the big dig. They are making commuters on one road pay for a different road used by a different set of commuters.

[Nell Plotts]

The bridge across the Columbia at I-5 has been tolled twice in the past to pay for bridge construction. When the bridge construction bonds were retired so were the toll boths. This wouldn't be a new practice. It doesn't matter in which direction the toll is collected so long as both bridges are tolled (to prevent run-arounds) the impact will be the same.