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This whole thing seems like just so much entitlement. A minority group, (Eastern Oregonians) can't handle what it means to be a minority, because they are not used to not getting their way. As a minority myself, I have little sympathy. You just have to accept the fact that the world isn't set up to cater to your desires, or your culture. Also, they act like Western Oregon is one endless city. There are plenty of people on the west side of Oregon that live in small towns, are conservative, and lead basically the same lifestyle (actually, there are more people on the west side with a similar culture to the east side than there are people on the east side.) But somehow they get through life without feeling like they need to secede.
Maybe by thinking more about learning how to live around people not just like them, perhaps? I know its a novel idea in today's fracture, toxic American culture. But that used to be more of the norm - living with people of different persuasions, backgrounds, ideologies, faiths, cultures, colors, etc....
Rather than depending on hearsay, Portland's KGW8 sent a reporter to Eastern Oregon to learn about the Greater Idaho Movement. Good, old-fashioned reporting. Not much talk about money, mostly values:
What are the specific complaints about Democratic governance from Salem? Not the mumbo jumbo whining about how "urban people don't understand us rural folks and our conservative values". But the specific complaints about specific laws coming out of Salem that are so egregious they need to secede.
Maybe by thinking more about learning how to live around people not just like them, perhaps? I know its a novel idea in today's fracture, toxic American culture. But that used to be more of the norm - living with people of different persuasions, backgrounds, ideologies, faiths, cultures, colors, etc....
Derek
Interesting comment.
A few points of rebut:
#1 - America was never a country where living around different people was peaceful. Throughout history, people with differences, be they physical, cultural, values based or economic, have always
challenged each other.
#2 - There is a big difference between "living around different people" vs realizing the very real threats those same different people put forth. Do you really believe far left Portland and Salem Progressive, liberal, Democrats are not out to change as much as they can about Oregon to suit their vision of Utopia? These are Soros backed nutjobs.
I would like to hear just once, the Progressive Left in this state claim that they are NOT out to fundamentally change culture but just want to "live and let live."
Eastern Oregon people are concerned with topics like:
DEI
Environmental Nazism
Race based favoritism in Gov't spending (Ironically a severe form of racism)
Anti constitutional intrusion into life
Taxpayer funded baby murder
Over regulation of private land use and housing industry
Lousy public schools
One of the highest tax rates in country.
It would be interesting to see reactions if tides were turned. For example, it would not be hard to imagine the Blue Portland crowd burning down their own city if Oregon was turning redder.
Eastern Oregon people are concerned with topics like:
DEI
Environmental Nazism
Race based favoritism in Gov't spending (Ironically a severe form of racism)
Anti constitutional intrusion into life
Taxpayer funded baby murder
Over regulation of private land use and housing industry
Lousy public schools
One of the highest tax rates in country.
It would be interesting to see reactions if tides were turned. For example, it would not be hard to imagine the Blue Portland crowd burning down their own city if Oregon was turning redder.
So, no actual legitimate complaints then? We could go down your whole list but I'll just pick two to make the point:
Abortion: Legalization of abortion in Oregon happened in 1983 when the legislature repealed all the previous pre-Roe statutes restricting abortion and found that abortion rights were protected by the state constitution (i.e. that a constitutional amendment would be required to outlaw abortion). Who signed this bill into law? REPUBLICAN Governor Vic Atiyeh. There have been four attempts to restrict abortion in various fashion by amending the state constitution through the initiative process. In 1978, 1986, 1990, and 2006. They were all rejected by the voters and failed. The fact that Oregon voters support the right to an abortion is nothing new and goes back 50 years. So while you may disagree, there is nothing new under the sun on this issue whatsoever. Why weren't eastern Oregonians clamoring for secession back in 1983?
Taxes: In terms of overall tax burden (all state taxes combined), Oregon ranks #31 in the country so actually lower than the national average and below some famous anti-tax states like Texas which is #29. https://wallethub.com/edu/states-wit...x-burden/20494 In fact your taxes will be largely unchanged if you join Idaho which ranks right next to Oregon in total tax burden at #33. In fact, if you are a retiree or lower income your tax burden will be lower in Oregon than Idaho due to the sales tax. It is also a bit rich to simultaneously complain about taxes and the quality of public schools since the two are directly related. You get what you pay for. All the states with the top rated public school systems (MA, CT, NJ, VT, NH, etc.) have higher taxes than Oregon. And schools in Idaho are generally lower rated than those in Oregon so you'd be going backwards there: https://scholaroo.com/report/state-education-rankings/
Last edited by texasdiver; 04-01-2023 at 06:06 PM..
Maybe by thinking more about learning how to live around people not just like them, perhaps? .........
Except the liberals do not want to learn to live around people not just like them. They want to declare that the Eastern Oregonians simply can not be unhappy because they, the liberals, know best and they have decreed that they can not be unhappy. They declare that conservative feelings and lifestyle are invalid and that those uneducated rednecks actually feel exactly as the liberals declare they must feel. They won't recognize that lifestyles are different and believe that the Eastern Oregonians certainly can not have any reason that they can not all live by laws passed to suit the lifestyles of the big cities one size fits all because the liberals like the laws and therefore the Eastern Oregonians are required to like them, too..
"Let's all get along" does not mean that you get 100% of everything your own way. That is not the meaning of compromise, barring the fact that the progressives have been busy changing the definitions of words to suit themselves.
Here's an idea. Why don't the liberals pass laws that only affect their liberal areas and let the rest of the state figure out what works best for their own area,
So, no actual legitimate complaints then? We could go down your whole list but I'll just pick two to make the point:
Abortion: Legalization of abortion in Oregon happened in 1983 when the legislature repealed all the previous pre-Roe statutes restricting abortion and found that abortion rights were protected by the state constitution (i.e. that a constitutional amendment would be required to outlaw abortion). Who signed this bill into law? REPUBLICAN Governor Vic Atiyeh. There have been four attempts to restrict abortion in various fashion by amending the state constitution through the initiative process. In 1978, 1986, 1990, and 2006. They were all rejected by the voters and failed. The fact that Oregon voters support the right to an abortion is nothing new and goes back 50 years. So while you may disagree, there is nothing new under the sun on this issue whatsoever. Why weren't eastern Oregonians clamoring for secession back in 1983?
Taxes: In terms of overall tax burden (all state taxes combined), Oregon ranks #31 in the country so actually lower than the national average and below some famous anti-tax states like Texas which is #29. https://wallethub.com/edu/states-wit...x-burden/20494 In fact your taxes will be largely unchanged if you join Idaho which ranks right next to Oregon in total tax burden at #33. In fact, if you are a retiree or lower income your tax burden will be lower in Oregon than Idaho due to the sales tax. It is also a bit rich to simultaneously complain about taxes and the quality of public schools since the two are directly related. You get what you pay for. All the states with the top rated public school systems (MA, CT, NJ, VT, NH, etc.) have higher taxes than Oregon. And schools in Idaho are generally lower rated than those in Oregon so you'd be going backwards there: https://scholaroo.com/report/state-education-rankings/
Reading can he hard - I get it.
The list is pretty thorough and comprehensive for CD Data. Not going to draft thesis papers for a social media site. I acknowledge that the very nature of this form of communication makes true information exchange challenging.
But since you want to argue specifics - OK
Baby killing:
Tax payer funding of baby killing is much different grievance that the legality of baby killing.
Oregon is the most pro baby killing state in the union. 17 states use state dollars to pay for baby killing.
Oregon spends the most tax money and kills the most babies per capita. I acknowledge the voters of the state (mostly Portland Progressive douche-bags) vote for this.
Taxes:
Thank you for the Wallet hub chart. I doubt very much the accuracy. There is just no way Oregon ranks much lower than places like Mississippi for total tax burden. It is a VERY WEIRD chart and judging by comments section, zillions of others think so too.
I did not spend a lot of time analyzing but I think the calculation fails as it looks at three types of taxes with EQUAL weight. To rank OR high Income tax as equal to it's low Sales tax assumes both taxes impact finances equally. That is false.
Income tax affects EVERY dollar a household brings in. Sales tax affects a relatively small # of outgoing dollars. Further most states exempt the majority of expenditures needed to live from sales tax (Food, medial, utilities etc.) For example, When I lived in Cook County IL. for a few years, Sales tax is technically very high at 10%. I ran some calculations on my life and found it to cost me about 1% annually. So not fun but not a killer either.
It's a bogus argument when folks want to argue OR lack of sales tax offsets it's high (#3) income tax.
Crappy schools:
Numerous rankings have Oregon at or near the bottom of the country and Idaho a little better or equal for public schools:
Wallet hub (your source): OR 41, ID 35
US News and world report: OR 38, ID 29
There are others as well. It can be stated that neither state is great. However, Idaho spends $3-4,000 Less per student for the same overall result. Despite your comment that expenditure equals quality - Idaho wins!
Regardless of data and statistics, we both know that peoples' emotions and feelings likely mean more that pure factual data anyway. If Facts ruled the day, Biden would not be President.
It is really quite simple to take the median income person and look at their TOTAL state/local tax burden in different states (income tax, sales tax, property tax, business taxes etc.) It is also quite possible to look at total state/local revenues from all sources and divide by the total population to determine the per-capita state tax burden. These are not hard exercises and the data are available.
By ether measure, Oregon does not have a high state/local tax burden. In fact, it is below average.
Obviously each individual person is going to have a different tax burden depending on their own personal income and spending behavior. Idaho's tax code is more regressive than Oregon's so on average, the poor in Idaho pay a higher portion of their income in taxes compared to the wealthy. In Oregon the opposite is true.
Quote:
Regardless of data and statistics, we both know that peoples' emotions and feelings likely mean more that pure factual data anyway.
Bingo, this is all about "feelings" and not facts. And the whole movement is frankly riddled with hypocrisy. For example:
In all the news articles on this subject you hear Eastern Oregon conservatives constantly complaining that their "freedoms" are being infringed on. While in the same breath complaining about legalization of pot and legalization of abortion which are both issues directly related to personal freedom.
Likewise you hear a great deal about how unfair it is that Eastern Oregon conservatives are "in the minority" in Oregon. But they show absolutely zero concern about the presumed minority of Eastern Oregonians who have no interest in leaving Oregon and becoming part of Idaho. What about their rights? Or is it majority rule for me but not for thee?
Honestly, I believe that Republicans could make large inroads in both Oregon and Washington if they stopped nominating crazy Q-Anon types like Jo Rae Perkins, or election deniers like Loren Culp. Sensible intelligent Republicans actually do win, even in blue parts of the Willamette Valley as we saw with Lori Chavez-DeRemer. The homeless issue is probably going to be the biggest statewide issue in the next decade. And if Democrats can't start making massive inroads into that problem (and I expect they won't) then we will likely see a lot of carnage in Democratic ranks, even in liberal strongholds like Portland. We already saw the start of that with the election of Rene Gonzalez to the Portland City Council over incumbent Jo Ann Hardesty.
Political trends come and go and nothing is permanent. Go back a few decades in time and West Virginia was a solid Democratic state while California was solidly Republican producing both Nixon and Reagan. This was the 1976 electoral map. OR, WA, and CA all voted Republican. Texas, West Virginia, and the entire south voted Democratic. And if Boise keeps growing at the pace it is growing, that state could eventually turn purple or blue too.
Here's an idea. Why don't the liberals pass laws that only affect their liberal areas and let the rest of the state figure out what works best for their own area,
So, for example DON'T act like Eastern Oregonian conservatives who want to pass an abortion ban that would affect all Oregonians? Even though there is not a single abortion clinic anywhere east of Bend?
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,700 posts, read 58,012,579 times
Reputation: 46172
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccjarider
Reading can he hard - I get it.
The list is pretty thorough and comprehensive for CD Data. ....
Yes, reading and comprehension and valid response are all impossible - when you're riding / tooting the agenda you must FORCE on others. If the wrong way is the ONLY way, it is the RIGHT way. This is very embraced, (amongst the non-readers, non-hearers,) and why there is a great divide. (Which cannot be bridged)
Their support comes via a paycheck, inheritance, earning spouse, or other EASY money. They are not working the land, caring for livestock, conserving natural resources because their very existence requires it. They are existing on fluff, and their livelihood is very simple. They can create and legislate rules that make your life and income impossible. It's no problem for them, they can pack up and be gone over a weekend, so they can go ruin another nice functioning community. And they do that as often as they desire. It's fulfilling to them. They've imposed their mission onto others. Like it, or leave (just as they do). Not so simple for many, they've been rooted for generations, and have generational obligations.
Last edited by StealthRabbit; 04-03-2023 at 10:05 AM..
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