Lupron + IVF + frozen embryos + gestational surrogate and what really happened. (line, weeks)

[suenjohn]

As we understand it, Lupron is used by most RE's for IVF, though there are two other newer drugs, with less side effects.
After communicating with a potential GS, it was learned that she got sick after beginning lupron. Supposedly a high fever and flu caused the IVF transfer of two 8 year old frozen embryos to fail.
Research is not finding flu and high fever as being side affects of lupron, and lupron can not cause a failed transfer.
If the lupron was started days or weeks before IVF, wouldn't the sickness from the lupron, have cancelled the IVF?
The GS was paid a transfer fee only.
The two versions of what happened.
The transfer failed because the frozen embryos were so old and there were only two, and the RE said the chance of a success was about 20%. That would explain the failed transfer, though lupron, itself, can not cause a failed transfer.
The other was that the embryos were fresh. And that the GS refused to go forward with the IVF having associated her flu and high fever with the drug. Thus leaving the intended parents stuck with about $25K fees already paid, and having to find another surrogate.
All we want to know is what really happened. One big discrepancy is whether the embryos were fresh or 8 year old frozen.
Either could have been a failed transfer on the first cycle.
Maybe the GS decided not to try the second time because of her sickness.
In may have been coincidental that she came down with the flu and a high fever after taking lupron.

Thank you for any light you can shed on what may have happened here.

[suzy_q2010]

Originally Posted by suenjohn

As we understand it, Lupron is used by most RE's for IVF, though there are two other newer drugs, with less side effects.
After communicating with a potential GS, it was learned that she got sick after beginning lupron. Supposedly a high fever and flu caused the IVF transfer of two 8 year old frozen embryos to fail.
Research is not finding flu and high fever as being side affects of lupron, and lupron can not cause a failed transfer.
If the lupron was started days or weeks before IVF, wouldn't the sickness from the lupron, have cancelled the IVF?
The GS was paid a transfer fee only.
The two versions of what happened.
The transfer failed because the frozen embryos were so old and there were only two, and the RE said the chance of a success was about 20%. That would explain the failed transfer, though lupron, itself, can not cause a failed transfer.
The other was that the embryos were fresh. And that the GS refused to go forward with the IVF having associated her flu and high fever with the drug. Thus leaving the intended parents stuck with about $25K fees already paid, and having to find another surrogate.
All we want to know is what really happened. One big discrepancy is whether the embryos were fresh or 8 year old frozen.
Either could have been a failed transfer on the first cycle.
Maybe the GS decided not to try the second time because of her sickness.
In may have been coincidental that she came down with the flu and a high fever after taking lupron.

Thank you for any light you can shed on what may have happened here.

I do not think the Lupron caused the fever and flu like symptoms.

The RE was apparently not surprised by the failed transfer.

The surrogate cannot understand that because she took Lupron does not mean her symptoms were caused by it. She probably is not a good candidate to be at a surrogate at all.

I would look for another surrogate.

Why was there an 8 year delay before using the embryos that resulted in the failed transfer?

[suenjohn]

Originally Posted by suzy_q2010

I do not think the Lupron caused the fever and flu like symptoms.
The RE was apparently not surprised by the failed transfer.
The surrogate cannot understand that because she took Lupron does not mean her symptoms were caused by it. She probably is not a good candidate to be at a surrogate at all.
I would look for another surrogate.
Why was there an 8 year delay before using the embryos that resulted in the failed transfer?

This lady had already been a successful traditional surrogate.
Lupron does have good alternative drugs like antagon.

All that is known, rather unknown, are two possible scenarios:

The transfer failed because the couple were using 2 embryos that they had frozen from 8 years earlier. And before the transfer, everyone was made aware that the chance of a successfull transfer was 20%. Thus a failed transfer, possibly beause the embryos were so old, and there were only two of them. The GS was paid a transfer fee.
What happend next, not sure.
Not sure where lupron-flu-fever fit in this scenario.

The GS had side effects from lupron and did not proceed with the IVF where there were 4 fresh embryos waiting, thus the intended parents had to absorb the fees already paid and find another GS.

Not sure which was the case.

If the lupron did not cause the flu-fever, and could not cause a failed transfer, why didn't the RE let everyone know that lupron was not the cause of the flu. Let the flu pass, postpone the IVF, and then proceed as everyone had planned?

So, the 8 year old frozen embryos and failed transfer is not accurate.
Or the GS was not paid the transfer fee and the IVF was cancelled when the GS "thought" the lupron was causing these bad side effects (flu and fever).

Lupron can cause symptoms of menapause.
How many surrogate's cancel because of these side effects? (low%?)
How many biological mothers go get an abortion due to these side effects? (low%?)

Not understanding why the lupron prevented the GS journey from proceeding. Something is missing. Either the flu and fever were caused by the lupron, or the flu and fever created risk for the IVF, or there were never any frozen embryos, etc, etc.

Missing pieces to this puzzle of what happened.

[suzy_q2010]

Originally Posted by suenjohn

This lady had already been a successful traditional surrogate.
Lupron does have good alternative drugs like antagon.

All that is known, rather unknown, are two possible scenarios:

The transfer failed because the couple were using 2 embryos that they had frozen from 8 years earlier. And before the transfer, everyone was made aware that the chance of a successfull transfer was 20%. Thus a failed transfer, possibly beause the embryos were so old, and there were only two of them. The GS was paid a transfer fee.
What happend next, not sure.
Not sure where lupron-flu-fever fit in this scenario.

The GS had side effects from lupron and did not proceed with the IVF where there were 4 fresh embryos waiting, thus the intended parents had to absorb the fees already paid and find another GS.

Not sure which was the case.

If the lupron did not cause the flu-fever, and could not cause a failed transfer, why didn't the RE let everyone know that lupron was not the cause of the flu. Let the flu pass, postpone the IVF, and then proceed as everyone had planned?

So, the 8 year old frozen embryos and failed transfer is not accurate.
Or the GS was not paid the transfer fee and the IVF was cancelled when the GS "thought" the lupron was causing these bad side effects (flu and fever).

Lupron can cause symptoms of menapause.
How many surrogate's cancel because of these side effects? (low%?)
How many biological mothers go get an abortion due to these side effects? (low%?)

Not understanding why the lupron prevented the GS journey from proceeding. Something is missing. Either the flu and fever were caused by the lupron, or the flu and fever created risk for the IVF, or there were never any frozen embryos, etc, etc.

Missing pieces to this puzzle of what happened.

The puzzle is why you would consider a surrogate who backed out of a previous procedure.

[suenjohn]

Originally Posted by suzy_q2010

The puzzle is why you would consider a surrogate who backed out of a previous procedure.

Didn't know there was a back out, and still do not know if.

Was only told that experienced TS is not suitable as a GS.
And it's more than lupron.

Also told there was an IVF procedure with a small number of fresh. Caught the flu from a friend, after the transfer, and pregnancy was not achieved.

For some reason, there was no 2nd attempt, once the normal case of the flu, was over. Lupron does not cause flu.

So, maybe the GS had side effects from the drug and maybe decided

"not to pursue" the 2nd cycle, and in that way, left the couple hanging with alot of paid out cost that were not able to be recovered.

Catching the flu from a friend, and lupron, seem not linked, based on research.

Between agency, doctor, SM, just wanting an explanation, since this remotely possible match looked somewhat optimistic in the beginning of the communication, but now over. Guess there are other agencies and doctors besides these.

(not considering this former TS, now, due to the unexplained issues, missing pieces)

[Sudcaro]

I took Lupron when I did my IVF, and never got sick or anything. My doctor never told me about potential side effects...

[suenjohn]

Originally Posted by Sudcaro

I took Lupron when I did my IVF, and never got sick or anything. My doctor never told me about potential side effects...

The side effects are similar to those of menapause.

If a surrogate gets the flu after IVF, can the flu prevent a pregnancy from being achieved?

The details are partially out, but still not all connected.

This TS had two GS IVF's. One was with 3 fresh and they got the flu, and had side effects of lupron, and the transfer failed.

On the 2nd IVF the 2 embryos were frozen from 9 years earlier and at that time, the donor was age 38. So, this was the transfer where the RE told everyone the chances of a pregnancy was 20%. The 80% odds prevailed, the IP's could not proceed with this GS, because they were in their upper 40's, and out of frozen.

The GS was paid a small transfer fee. Not sure if it was one or both of the transfer or whether there was only one IVF. GS and agent won't talk.

The contract was broken by the GS with the 3 fresh. Maybe right before IVF and maybe after.
If this happened after the IVF and the transfer failed because of the flu (is this possible - or could the transfer have failed because there were only 3 embryos?) then the lawyers and agency got paid, as did the RE for the IVF and everything leading up to the IVF. If that was the case, then alot of people got paid. Leaving the IP's devastated financially.

The GS says that she and the agent had different views on things and that she, the GS, decided to walk. If this walk, was after the IVF, or even before, alot of people got paid. So, why were these "differences in views" not known from day one and why was this match even made?
If the match was a failure in the making, then some people got paid.

It has to be assumed that there are agencies that do not care if the GS or TS walks 2 weeks after the IVF or not. They got their fee and it was not their fault. They can claim they matched based on various criteria, and the match was proper and the TS-GS just ventured out of the comfort zone as time went by.

[miyu]

I don't think Lupron and the illness had any relationship. If she had the flu at the beginning of Lupron injections, she should have already gotten over the flu by the time the embryos were transferred (unless it was a particularly nasty flu). Most likely she got over her illness, so they did not cancel the cycle.

Though the illness might have some remote chance of causing the transfer to fail, there are other more plausible explanations. I don't think the Lupron should have caused implantation failure by causing a thin endometrial lining, because they usually check these things by ultrasound before they decide to transfer.

- The age of the frozen embryos is #1 on my suspect list.
- The low number of embryos transferred would also give a low probability of success.

- If fresh embryos were available, then there is no reason to use the frozen ones. This makes no sense.

What country is the surrogate in? Is it in your home country? Do you have direct access to the clinic and can you check to see if it is for real? I have heard of clinics in different countries charging for services that were never completed. For example, there would never be a surrogate and they would string you along, but you would have no way to check.

[suenjohn]

Here is what has been learned:

1. The first time GS (she had been a TS one time and was successful) said she had side effects from lupron, got the flu after the IVF, got paid at least one $1000 transfer fee, and walked out on the contract because she and the agent have different views.
A. Keep in mind now, that there were supposedly two IVF's. The first one was with 3 fresh and this one failed. Maybe because of the number 3, maybe because of lupron which is very doubtful, maybe because of the flu. One this first IVF, what is not known for sure, is if the flu occurred before or after the IVF, and whether the walk away from the contract was before or after IVF.
Now the 2nd IVF was two 9 year frozen. And the IM at the time of donation was age 38. So, the RE told everyone involved that the chance of success was about 20%. It failed, due to the low number, or the age of the frozen. Since the couple were then in their upper 40's and out of frozen, the relationship with the GS ended. I think this is where the "one" $1000 transfer fee came into play.

So, if there was only one transfer fee paid, then the first journey may have ended before IVF. Not sure. In any event the GS said that she and the agent had different views on things. The agent said the GS and the RE had different views on things. Either way, it seems everyone was on the same page at first, and then it got so bad the GS walked away from the contract, maybe before IVF or maybe after the IVF failed (due to the flu). Maybe it was not a good match but the agent went forward with it. I'm not hearing any mention of any issues between the GS and the IP's.
It was either between the agent and the GS, or the GS and the rules of the RE.

Unanswered questions are then:
Can the flu cause a failed transfer? If not, and lupron can not either, then if there was a failed IVF it was because their were only 3 fresh.
Did the flu occur before, or after IVF? If before it seems the IVF would have been postponed, or a find a new GS.
Did the IP's lose the entire legal fees and the agent fees and the IVF fee?

Something went wrong at some point.
Maybe the GS had bad side effects from the lupron and when the first transfer failed and she had different views than "somebody" (agent or RE) and with all that added together, she decided not to wait until the next cycle and try again. This does not seem like a very easy way for the GS to make a $1000 transfer fee. Go through all that process of applying, travelling, meds, IVF, legal, etc. all for $1000.

It sounds like the winners were the lawyers, agent, and maybe the doctor, and the losers were the IP's, maybe to the tune of $25,000-$30,000. Not all of the details are known.
Some agencies have a "program fee" and it includes everything, and if this case got past the matching, contract, medication and IVF stages, of course the IP's had alot into it at that point.

The RE and the agents have good reputations, overall. No business of any kind is 100% complaint free.
It does not sound like the GS had the intention of scamming (isn't that the term the surrogacy community uses?) or they would not have revealed that they walked out on the contract.

As IP's, this GS is not suitable. Not sure about the other parties involved.

[suzy_q2010]

Why are you so concerned about a surrogate that you are not planning to use?

I still do not understand what your bottom line question is. If you have questions about the doctors or the agent ( I presume someone who is recruiting the surrogate?), go someplace else.