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There are people who become psychologists to do research, in fields such as social psychology. But the majority of it do it to work with people.
I've come to deduce that many of these people do it for all the wrong reasons - to figure out their own problems en route, for power, for control, and for the money (though some aren't THAT well-paid).
Do you think a lot of people in this field shouldn't be there? I mean, this isn't like civil engineering, where you do the course work and take a licensing exam which, in most cases, means you are qualified to do the work. What do you think of psychologists/therapists? (Please, I don't need to hear about stereotyping , only your observations or perceptions).
There are people who become psychologists to do research, in fields such as social psychology. But the majority of it do it to work with people.
I've come to deduce that many of these people do it for all the wrong reasons - to figure out their own problems en route, for power, for control, and for the money (though some aren't THAT well-paid).
Do you think a lot of people in this field shouldn't be there? I mean, this isn't like civil engineering, where you do the course work and take a licensing exam which, in most cases, means you are qualified to do the work. What do you think of psychologists/therapists? (Please, I don't need to hear about stereotyping , only your observations or perceptions).
Clearly you don't. You seem to be doing it quite well by yourself.
So what has led you to dismiss so many people you have never met and know nothing about?
There are people who become psychologists to do research, in fields such as social psychology. But the majority of it do it to work with people.
I've come to deduce that many of these people do it for all the wrong reasons - to figure out their own problems en route, for power, for control, and for the money (though some aren't THAT well-paid).
Do you think a lot of people in this field shouldn't be there? I mean, this isn't like civil engineering, where you do the course work and take a licensing exam which, in most cases, means you are qualified to do the work. What do you think of psychologists/therapists? (Please, I don't need to hear about stereotyping , only your observations or perceptions).
I'm just not sure. In my own personal experience with psychologists & psychiatrists and therapists, they've mostly been fine and seem like they are there for the right reason. Not always helpful, necessarily but they do listen for the most part. Now, I have a close family member with a sometimes severe mental health condition, and I have yet to have seen anyone (or mental health system) competent enough to deal with that. Those people aren't getting "paid", either, so I'm not sure what the problem is.
I'm just not sure. In my own personal experience with psychologists & psychiatrists and therapists, they've mostly been fine and seem like they are there for the right reason. Not always helpful, necessarily but they do listen for the most part. Now, I have a close family member with a sometimes severe mental health condition, and I have yet to have seen anyone (or mental health system) competent enough to deal with that. Those people aren't getting "paid", either, so I'm not sure what the problem is.
Thank you for this well-rounded answer. I came up with this thread because of a concurrent thread talking about therapy and boosting self-esteem. I don't see how a therapist can do that for someone. I think they run the gamut, from real good to real bad. However, I think the proportion of bad therapists exceeds the proportion of bad professional engineers.
There are people who become psychologists to do research, in fields such as social psychology. But the majority of it do it to work with people.
I've come to deduce that many of these people do it for all the wrong reasons - to figure out their own problems en route, for power, for control, and for the money (though some aren't THAT well-paid).
Do you think a lot of people in this field shouldn't be there? I mean, this isn't like civil engineering, where you do the course work and take a licensing exam which, in most cases, means you are qualified to do the work. What do you think of psychologists/therapists? (Please, I don't need to hear about stereotyping , only your observations or perceptions).
Well, first of all, in order to become a therapist, one must undergo therapy, so they DO have to "figure out their own problems en route" as a matter of course.
The therapist I saw for a number of years had originally been a drug and alcohol counselor who did therapy on the side, and eventually he quit his day job and did therapy full-time. He said he liked it better. I wondered if it was because with the addiction work, it gets discouraging because the recovery rate is so low.
But I do believe most of them are therapists because they are there themselves. Once I was early to an appointment with my therapist, who was located in NYC's Greenwich Village. To kill time, I entered a little community park/garden down the street from his place. There was a table at the entrance where a woman sat reading and sort of guarding the little park to keep junkies and whatnot out. When she saw me, she asked if I would sit there for a few minutes so she could use the restroom, so I did, and when she came back she started to chat with me and asked if I lived in the neighborhood, etc., and when I told her I was going to see my therapist, it turned out SHE was also a therapist in the neighborhood. Then she gave me her card and told me to show it to my therapist and tell him I found someone else, just for sh**s and giggles and to see his reaction, because, she said, "We are all crazy, you know."
I did tell my therapist the story and showed him the card, and he just rolled his eyes.
[quote=robertpolyglot;25517119]Thank you for this well-rounded answer. I came up with this thread because of a concurrent thread talking about therapy and boosting self-esteem. I don't see how a therapist can do that for someone. I think they run the gamut, from real good to real bad. However, I think the proportion of bad therapists exceeds the proportion of bad professional engineers.[/quote]
Having worked with professional engineers for more than three decades, I would agree. I had a great therapist, and I was able to make positive structural change in myself under his guidance. Before him I had a bad therapist and a so-so therapist, and I've heard some horror stories from other people.
However, I think we have to add that even a good therapist can't accomplish much if the patient doesn't make the effort to do the work required to get well and make structural changes.
There are many people in this world who "have their own stuff" together and like to share by helping others. This includes people like newspaper columnists (Dear Abby) who help others, TV advice givers, mom's, and counselors/psychologists.
This is the way most of the people in the counseling field are that I have met. There are a couple of people I have met who had "issues", but that was how they acted towards their kids. But to be fair, some kids can drive anyone nuts! And I have no idea if they were good therapists or not.
Psychiatrists are medical doctors and go to medical school. Many medical doctors I have met seem to be money oriented, but I have met a couple who are not.
So far as one person boosting another person's self-esteem, this is VERY possible. Nothing magic about it. Someone else "looking in" may be able to clearly see a problem causing the low self-esteem. Maybe a person says "yes" to anyone asking them to do something - lend money - whatever. And that person has financial problems due to lending other people money. So it is just a simple thing to teach the person how to say "no" to other people. A bit of "assertiveness training" is all that is needed. Then problem solved! Of course not everything is that easy, but there is one example.
I have worked in the field of mental health for (gasp) 19 years now. I have a master's degree and a license (LCSW). I have to say, I do agree that there are a LOT of people in my field who got into it for what I consider inappropriate reasons. I don't think they are in the majority, but the bad ones are so obviously bad, that they might appear to be the majority, since those of us who are ethical, have healthy boundaries, and do a decent job aren't usually heard about.
Also, it is a fallacy that all therapists have to go through their own therapy. Many have not (and even if they have, it doesn't necesarily mean they have healthy self-awareness). Some schools of therapy, like psychoanalysis and Gestalt therapy require a therapist to go through it themselves, but most don't. In my training, it was "highly recommended" but not required.
I've seen the following groups (I've totally made these groups up, so I doubt there is any widespread recognition of them). Some I've met first hand, and others I got to "know" from taking over their cases and trying to repair the damage they'd done.
--People who have been through some kind of trauma, usually early in life, who gravitate toward mental health studies to try to work out their own issues. Sometimes these clinicians become an "expert" in their area, like sexual abuse, adult children of alcoholics, or children of narcissists. But it turns out to be all about them and their experiences and not about actually helping anyone.
--People who have been through some kind of trauma, who want to be a hero and rescue others who have been through similar traumas. I knew a woman in grad school who had survived a rape in her teens, and would see every single case we discussed through the lens of rape/sexual assault, even claiming that clients had gone through a "symbolic rape" in situations that had nothing to do with rape (like a person who was fired from a job, or who experienced the death of a loved one).
--People who have a intense need to be loved, needed, and depended upon by others. These are the ones who end up making their clients dependent on them rather than my goal, which is to help the person NOT need me anymore. These therapists are often the ones who are "fed" by the clients who say "no one has ever understood me like you do." This is a very common process in therapy, but the unhealthy therapists come to depend on it for their self-worth.
--People who have the need to manipulate or control others. I met one older man at a conference who was a licensed psychologist for years. He had been married and divorced three times, and each woman had been his client first. To me, this is a predator. I also had a co-worker for a short period of time (thank God he left) who I thought was clearly focused on controlling clients, and he seemed to insist on christlike admiration and obedience from them.
--People who studied in a behavioral health field because it sounded "nice" or "interesting." They are usually married or divorced, and the partner or ex-partner is financially supporting them. These folks end up with other priorities in life that are much more important than their career, and they take part-time work providing therapy, engage with clients, and then leave the job suddenly because it conflicted with the kids' soccer practice, or because they decided to try pilates or a book club instead. I've "inherited" so many clients from this type of therapist, and had to do a lot of cleaning up the messes they created.
--The intensely screwed-up who are so obviously "ill" but who got through grad school because the politically correct environment did not allow for pointing out their problems and addressing them. While on one hand I believe that people with mental illnesses can and do become very effective clinicians, these are people who go through good training, who have very astute self-awareness, and who know their limitations/biases/triggers and are very conscious of honestly evaluating them and keeping them in check. Unfortunately, I've seen too many therapists, with advanced degrees and licenses, whose functioning is below that of their clients. I've seen: a recovering addict and bipolar psychologist who relapsed and started borrowing money from clients (who were on disability) to pay for drugs, an LCSW who went through a breakup (with a married co-worker) and came to work with her arms all cut up (wearing short sleeves to show it off) and later cut much of her own hair off, and a personality-disordered LPC who became "friends" with several of her female clients, and they would call each other at home, share Ativan (antianxiety meds) and later swapped boyfriends, leading to the demise of one of the "friendships." All three of these clincians showed really severe warning signs back when they were in grad school and doing their master's field placements or doctoral internships, but the signs were either ignored or minimized by schools that wanted to graduate people, and other professionals who didn't want to make waves by appearing "judgmental." And yes, I reported all three to their licensing boards. I was only in a position to fire one (the third one) after she admitted that she had begun dating her client's boyfriend after the client came to complain to me about it.
I came up with this thread because of a concurrent thread talking about therapy and boosting self-esteem. I don't see how a therapist can do that for someone. I think they run the gamut, from real good to real bad. However, I think the proportion of bad therapists exceeds the proportion of bad professional engineers.
I don't think a therapist can do anything for anyone. A good one will give information and feedback to help the patient develop better self-esteem.
I agree that most people get into the field because of their own issues. This can be a double edged sword, they can use their experience to empathize and relate to the patient better or they can act out their own issues and cause additional damage to the patient. Theoretically, the therapist going through therapy should mean they've worked them through. But it could be it was a bad patient/therapist fit or an incompetent therapist's therapist or maybe the therapist as patient was unwilling or unable to do the work.
And as has been pointed out, there's such a wide variety in who can be considered a counselor/therapist. When I changed therapists about a year and a half ago, I went with a psychologist because I feel there's more standardization in their training. It's been working out well, but even with people licensed at the same level, there can be huge differences. I'll go in chronological order and give a little background from the patient perspective.
For anyone who wants to skip the novel length description of 20 odd years of trying to get help, basically I've dealt with four people who are good, competent, in the field for the right reason and know what they're doing. And six incompetents who have let either their ineptness or own issues/biases cloud treatment. So it's nearly an even split.
Now for the novel.
I grew up with addiction and domestic violence in my family. My mother also exhibits many signs/symptoms of both what used to be called Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder.
I first sought help when I was a college, but only recognized the addiction and violence, wasn't aware of Personality Disorders at the time. Counselor was a student volunteer who told me my problems were too severe for the counseling center and I'd have to see someone off campus. Didn't have a car and didn't want it showing up on my parent's insurance. So I didn't go. several years later, a woman at my work study job had previously worked at the counseling center and suggested I ask to speak to a particular counselor, we'll call him David, on an unrelated problem for a friend. I did, and went back a 2nd time to get help with my own problems. He referred me to another one who was helpful. So the one who told me my problems were too severe was wrong. She really should have referred me to one of the staff therapists for additional evaluation. The one I ended up working with was a grad student in training, we'll call her Diane. We ended therapy when she moved onto another position. She did give me her card with her home number and told me to call if I needed it. Fortunately, things weren't that bad, so I didn't need to call her at home.
Awhile after therapy, first estrangement with my mother. I didn't feel the need for any help at all during that time.
However, I made the mistake of reconciling with her to support her sobriety. She wasn't overtly abusive with the cursing like she'd been in the past or with the occasional physical violence when I was a child (punching in the back, shoving, hair pulling). But eventually the snide comments started and occasional unprovoked screaming bouts started up again. Really, I should have cut ties right when it started.
So I go to a therapist in my 30s. We'll call her Donna. She's a licensed CSW She'd routinely go through staff. As in the 2 people in the front office, would both quit and new people would replace them and they'd quit. She decided I should work with another therapist she hired. So I had to start all over again with a new therapist, who, you guessed it, quit by about my 3rd appointment. She asked me to answer her phone one day because she had no staff! Still relatively new to therapy, I had sense this wasn't right, but didn't realize how inappropriate it was. She wanted to do some sort of role playing thing where I was to think of her as my mother. And she said something about parents being gods, I don't remember the context of. The moment of truth came when she wanted me to do work related to my field for her. I realized given my people pleasing tendencies working for my therapist would be a really BAD idea. I wanted to keep it strictly therapist-patient. She got angry and I ended therapy with her.
While looking for a therapist before her, I found a guy who said I couldn't have PTSD symptoms because of the age I was when most of the violence in my family happened. He thought I was too old when I experienced it (wasn't a baby or toddler) to develop PTSD. Which didn't make any sense to me, so I never went back. Don't remember his credentials.
Around 40ish, I decide to give therapy another shot. Mainly because the irritability from anxiety interferes with other relationships in my life. This one's a LCSW, we'll call her Molly. I gave her all of my insurance info before the first session. Yet she doesn't tell me I'm going to owe her until the first session. I have my debit card on me, but she doesn't take those. I give her most of the cash I had on me and ask if I can pay the rest next week because it will take me a lot longer to get home if I have to stop at an ATM and come back to pay her. She agrees. Now, the blame is on me because I should have called my insurance and not settled for her reassurances she'd call and get the info. But she had this weird habit smiling while she counted the money when I'd pay her at the beginning of the session. Even if she wasn't smiling before or after, she'd smile when she counted the cash.
One morning, I dropped my car off for maintenance. The place used to be open until late at night. Didn't think twice about scheduling it on the same day as my therapy appointment with Molly. When I got there, they told me they'd cut back hours. I mistakenly gave them the key ring with my house keys, normally I just give the set with only the car. So I had to get back before they closed. I called Molly first thing in the morning to see if we can re-schedule. I'd never missed an appointment or payment before and it was an honest mistake. She was out of town the rest of the week and couldn't reschedule. She charged me the missed payment fee. Which was fair enough, I signed the paperwork acknowledging it when I started as a patient. But she lectured me on whether or not I prioritized therapy enough. I'd already been seeing her for awhile at that point. Bizarre.
Also, I have a bad tendency during therapy to intellectualize and not talk about how I'm feeling. Which I know is frustrating for a therapist. But she'd get really impatient with me about it, instead of helping me through it or making suggestions. She made me feel even worse. And it was a financial strain. I thought about going less frequently to save money, say every other week, but when I'd be ready to suggest it, she would notice something I'd bought (say a coat or a purse). Keep in mind, to save money, I was only buying thing when they had to be replaced and even then, looking out for sales/waiting towards the end of a season to save money.
Finally, I told her I was ending therapy and she got angry, raising her voice. She wanted another session to sum things up, but they way she reacted didn't make me feel very comfortable doing so. So then she started yelling at me, was it the money? She was really nasty. I should have walked out right there, but all I did is say if the rest of the session was going to be like this, we may as well end it early. I stayed for the rest of the session, which looking back is really strange.
I gave up on therapy for a few years after that. After the 2nd estrangement with my mother, which also had collateral damage of estranging my brother & SIL, I realized I needed some help to get through it. I went through my employers assistance program. Again, I still didn't know about Personality Disorders
The place was geared towards addiction, but helped family members/SOs too. I started working with Art, a MSW. At first he was very helpful, he helped me realize I'd been scapegoated in my family and how that affected how I interacted with people. That's how I learned about Personality Disorders and he helped with with the grieving I was doing over the estrangement. He had a lot of great recommendations for self-help reading and he was patient with the over-intellectualizing. He gave me a list of feelings and encouraged me to see which ones I might be feeling.
The trouble came when we decided that I should look into medication options for the anxiety and insomnia I'd been having. I'd been in therapy with him for a year and a half and we'd worked on a number of natural options to address both. So he referred me to the psychiatrist, who specializes in addiction. She was completely unprofessional, leaving the door open without explaining why (I'm guessing because it was warm and she was towards the end of her pregnancy). It's ok to leave the door open, but at least check if it's ok with me. She seemed perplexed by what to do with me because I was a family member and she deals with addicts. She also kept pushing anti-depressants even though I was reluctant to take them due to a bad experience with Paxil.
And it's my fault for not doing the research on this place, but I wasn't in the best frame of mind when I was referred. Turns out they're completely against drinking, even 2 or 3 drinks 1 or 2 times a week out with friends.
So she & Art decided I was an alcoholic and I must be in denial. Meanwhile, I was willing to not drink at all while taking medication since some of them mix badly with alcohol. And if I did resume, keep a drinking journal. I also made the mistake of telling Art I'd blacked out from drinking in college once and cut back on drinking after that. Apparently one of the signs of alcoholism is cutting back on drinking. Most of my friends drink a lot less now in our 40s than they did in our 20s. But apparently tapering off the amount you drink means your an alcoholic according to Art. Made no sense to me.
Art completely dismissed my concerns about the door being open, etc. and wanted to focus on how I was an alcoholic. For awhile, I was really worried. I have a family history and denial is a symptom. I asked several close friends who I knew would tell me if I had a problem. They all said no. I even wondered if they might be biased and decided to get a second opinion.
I decided I wanted some sort of regulation of credentials and experience beyond the CSW/MSW/LCSW/LCMSW range. So I looked for psychologist who took my insurance. Now that I knew I was quite possibly dealing with a Personality Disordered parent, I looked for ones who specialized in both that and addiction. Which is how I found my current therapist. I Googled reviews on him and he has a site, so I read through that. We'll call him Brian
Brian pretty much laughed when I told him the reasons why Art thought I was an alcoholic. He also confirmed that both the psychiatrist and Art weren't acting appropriately with the door, etc. Brian told me it didn't matter if I decided to pursue therapy with him, but he thought it would be a good idea to change therapists and he could recommend others if I didn't want to work with him.
So I had one last therapy session with Art to let him know I'd be ending therapy. I had let Art know about some of my previous problems with therapists, which he tried to use against me to imply I was the problem. I also let him know I thought he'd been dismissive of my concerns about the open door, etc. But I also wanted to thank him and focus on the progress we'd made. But he kept interrupting it to bring it back to my ending therapy with him. And I'd bring up the dismissive part as to why. He'd claim he didn't mean to be dismissive and there's not really anything he can do about it if I'm ending therapy with him. It pretty much went through that pattern 'til the 45 minutes were up
So far, it's been over a year with the current therapist. He has a parent who shows many signs of NPD too. It's been really helpful because he "gets" it. When it's appropriate, he shares some of his own experience and strategies.
And it took several months, and coaxing by 2 of my close friends, but between them, they convinced me to get a 2nd psychiatrist's opinion on the medication question. I did the same type of research for a psychiatrist. One of them who came up was convinced anyone who had any alcohol or took any medication was an addict (crossed him off the list). I found one who seems to strike a good balance. He encourages patients to manage anxiety/insomnia through talk therapy, cognitive changes and relaxation techniques. But he is willing to prescribe medication when the insomnia/anxiety is too strong for that. He monitors it pretty closely.
Overall, I feel a lot better. What's scary is I live in large city with a lot of access to therapists, have decent insurance and have learned how to do my homework. I imagine it's got to be a lot rougher for people who don't have those resources.
Half of the battle is figuring out what you're going for/need help with. Then finding someone who actually knows what they're doing when it comes to that. And is a good fit to work with.
Last edited by exscapegoat; 08-07-2012 at 01:20 PM..
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, only your observations or perceptions).
