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Whoa! I'm not endorsing what was done as it sounds immature and petty. But at the worst, he acted like a cad, not a sexual abuser.
Do you know there are many forms of sexual abuse? It isn't all pedophiles jumping out of bushes, putting drugs into people's drinks, or physically threatening/forcing someone.
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The woman came onto him and consented to the sex, he misrepresented his feeling for her out of vengenance and the want for sex.
Exactly. & that is sexually abusive behavior. There is such a thing as non-physical coercion. The true test would be this: Did he purposely misrepresent himself, knowing she would not consent had he not? If the answer is yes, then it most certainly was abusive.
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But I wouldn't consider them sexual abusers because of the lies about their relationship status
Lying is wrong no matter what, but if they lied specifically so they could have sex with you then that is one form of sexual abuse. If they lied to have a relationship with you, I can see how you might find that as more of a gray area perhaps.
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And ask ourselves do we know this person well enough and if we don't and decide to go ahead anyway, well, then we have to live with the consequences.
Or we can hold sexually abusive people responsible for their actions. The problem is that so many people find this behavior acceptable/excusable. 122 men & women openly admit to committing rape so long as it isn't called rape -- you don't see that as a problem for society as a whole? Time to call a spade a spade.
Last edited by thethreefoldme; 09-25-2012 at 11:46 AM..
Re: the OP, Robert, did she offer her opinion to you unsolicited? Or did you ask her what she thought? If she offered it with out being asked, I don't think it has anything to do with feminism, but rather her having very poor boundaries and butting into your personal business, which is rude and obnoxious in and of itself. She shouldn't be doing that.
Now, re: the FWB, did you lead the mutual friend on that you were interested in a more long term relationship? Or was it just not discussed? I think whether it was right or wrong depends on which scenario it was.
1) If you both agreed upon it or it just wasn't discussed, I'd say you're in the clear. Ideally both people should be expressing what they want out of relationship, but since the person who wants the more serious relationship is the one who's going to be the most hurt by it ending or not panning out, it's up to that person to speak up for himself or herself before things get physically intimate.
2) If you deliberately misled her, then it's a classic case of 2 rights don't make a wrong. I do think it was crappy of her to cancel out on you like that. And I understand the frustration you felt there. But you did have the option of just ignoring her, which would have been more appropriate. There's such a thing as reacting in a degree appropriate to the wrong. For example, in my case, with the 2 previous boyfriends who lied about their relationship status, I could show up at their house and go all bunny boiler on them. But, is that really an appropriate reaction? They wronged me, but it doesn't give me license to burn the fields and salt the earth in their lives. To take the legal stuff out of it, say I happened to run into one of the wives and she was friendly with me. And I became BFF with her as a form of revenge. The guy wasn't right, but neither am I. We'd both be in the wrong.
If I were in your friend's situation, I'd think you were both in the wrong and probably wouldn't want to hear about it from either of you.
Re: the OP, Robert, did she offer her opinion to you unsolicited? Or did you ask her what she thought? If she offered it with out being asked, I don't think it has anything to do with feminism, but rather her having very poor boundaries and butting into your personal business, which is rude and obnoxious in and of itself. She shouldn't be doing that.
1) If you both agreed upon it or it just wasn't discussed, I'd say you're in the clear. Ideally both people should be expressing what they want out of relationship, but since the person who wants the more serious relationship is the one who's going to be the most hurt by it ending or not panning out, it's up to that person to speak up for himself or herself before things get physically intimate.
It was never, ever discussed. Not then. Not six months later. It just happened. I made no promises, nor did I indicate long-term interest. I would periodically pop for a movie or dinner, but no discussion of any romantic stuff took place. We usually talked about other things (work, friends, etc.)
The other woman was, and is, a "feminist." Her whole issue was when she found her I was physically involved with someone I wasn't interested in, and that my interest had actually waned to disrespect. I just talked about it upon subsequent visits to the area, and she had to call me on it. When I asked her to call this chick on it, she refused to do so. Every time you bring up her Dad, she sighs or wrinkles her lips. Volumes are spoken there.
Exactly. & that is sexually abusive behavior. There is such a thing as non-physical coercion. The true test would be this: Did he purposely misrepresent himself, knowing she would not consent had he not? If the answer is yes, then it most certainly was abusive.
Not saying a single word about how you feel and not making any promises is neither abusive nor coercion. You've evidently got some real tight mores which are, in my opinion, out of touch.
When I've told other women about this, including the advance soon after being stiffed, they said "What a (choose four letter c word, or five letter b word), I probably would have done the same thing." These are college-educated, career women, raised in religious households who said this. I think these women are secure in themselves, and don't bring Daddy baggage to the table.
I'd sure like to see some men weigh in on this and offer an opinion.
Do you know there are many forms of sexual abuse? It isn't all pedophiles jumping out of bushes, putting drugs into people's drinks, or physically threatening/forcing someone.
I'm well aware that people can be abused in various forms sexually. This doesn't qualify. I'm not saying what he did is honorable or commendable, it's perhaps slimy, depending on additional clarification. But there's a difference between slimy and abusive.
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Exactly. & that is sexually abusive behavior. There is such a thing as non-physical coercion. The true test would be this: Did he purposely misrepresent himself, knowing she would not consent had he not? If the answer is yes, then it most certainly was abusive.
Again, it may make a person a cad, but not a sexual abuser. Misrepresentation is different than coercion. People misrepresent themselves all of the time in the dating world. If a guy lies about his job, making it a higher paying/higher status one than it actually is and the woman regrets having sex with him after she finds out the truth, would you call that sexual abuse?
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Lying is wrong no matter what, but if they lied specifically so they could have sex with you then that is one form of sexual abuse. If they lied to have a relationship with you, I can see how you might find that as more of a gray area perhaps.
It doesn't matter to me if they were lying to me to have sex or to have a relationship. They may have been jerks and liars, but they weren't sexual abusers. One of them was probably an emotional abuser, but neither was a sexual abuser. I consented. One of the guys told me he was divorced (neglecting to mention he'd remarried when we discussed our relationship statuses) and I asked the other specifically if he and his wife had an agreement to see other people. He lied and said they did. I had broken my own rule of "don't date separated guys" for that one after seeing a friend who was separated meet his second wife while dating during the separation. I was thinking maybe I'd been too strict, so I decide to make an exception. Needless to say, the rule has been reinstated! If I'd followed my own rule there, I would have avoided at least that one. I'm not going to play damsel in distress and swoon when I'm perfectly capable of learning from a situation to take care of myself.
I once gave money for transit fare to a guy in a supermarket parking lot who claimed his car broke down while he was picking up diapers and medicine for his sick baby (I know, one of the oldest tricks in the book). When I saw him not too long after that, pulling the same scam, I didn't ask for my money back or accuse him of financial abuse. I chalked it up to live and learn and stopped giving to panhandlers (not that I did very frequently anyway). What you're saying is like accusing that guy in the parking of fraud or swindling. I think it's a bit much for the activity.
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Or we can hold sexually abusive people responsible for their actions. The problem is that so many people find this behavior acceptable/excusable. 122 men & women openly admit to committing rape so long as it isn't called rape -- you don't see that as a problem for society as a whole?
I don't see what Robert did as being a form of rape or sexual abuse. It may be slimy or caddish, but rape or sexual abuse? No.
Last edited by exscapegoat; 09-25-2012 at 12:07 PM..
It was never, ever discussed. Not then. Not six months later. It just happened. I made no promises, nor did I indicate long-term interest. I would periodically pop for a movie or dinner, but no discussion of any romantic stuff took place. We usually talked about other things (work, friends, etc.)
Your friend was probably upset because the way you are describing the FWB sounds like this:
You never told her how much you disliked her/had no respect for her, & instead continued to feign interest, respect, friendship, & essentially deceived her so you could continue to have sex.
It was never, ever discussed. Not then. Not six months later. It just happened. I made no promises, nor did I indicate long-term interest. I would periodically pop for a movie or dinner, but no discussion of any romantic stuff took place. We usually talked about other things (work, friends, etc.)
The other woman was, and is, a "feminist." Her whole issue was when she found her I was physically involved with someone I wasn't interested in, and that my interest had actually waned to disrespect. I just talked about it upon subsequent visits to the area, and she had to call me on it. When I asked her to call this chick on it, she refused to do so. Every time you bring up her Dad, she sighs or wrinkles her lips. Volumes are spoken there.
Actually with the clarifying information, I don't think this even qualifies as slimy or caddish. I don't quite understand it, as I just wouldn't want to be bothered with her after she pulled that stunt. Even the FWB thing would be irritating because it would require spending time around someone I don't like.
Your friend was probably upset because the way you are describing the FWB sounds like this:
You never told her how much you disliked her/had no respect for her, & instead continued to feign interest, respect, friendship, & essentially deceived her so you could continue to have sex.
None of those things. I talked to her in a "punch in the arm" manner ... as in telling dirty jokes, cursing about stuff, and being my irreverent self. There was none of the chivalrous stuff at all.
But there's a difference between slimy and abusive.
What is that difference, exactly?
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It doesn't matter to me if they were lying to me to have sex or to have a relationship. They may have been jerks and liars, but they weren't sexual abusers. One of them was probably an emotional abuser, but neither was a sexual abuser. I consented.
You don't have to consider them sexual abusers, but most mental health care professionals would tell you what they did was sexually abusive if they purposely used deception in order to get you to consent.
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I don't see what Robert did as being a form of rape or sexual abuse. It may be slimy or caddish, but rape or sexual abuse? No.
I'm not exactly sure if what he did was sexual abuse, but the way he describes it sounds sexually abusive. I never once said he was a rapist, just used those statistics as an example of how normal people can rape & be unaware of the fact that their behavior is even abusive.
Actually with the clarifying information, I don't think this even qualifies as slimy or caddish. I don't quite understand it, as I just wouldn't want to be bothered with her after she pulled that stunt. Even the FWB thing would be irritating because it would require spending time around someone I don't like.
That's why FWBs have a limited shelf life. There's no emotional glue that is required of them.
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