Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I posted this in Psychology because it seems to fit under the larger category of judgment and is beyond just the topics of criminal justice or crime.
I've noticed just in the last couple of weeks that in many local news stories, someone is arrested for a parole violation. Maybe I just tuned into it more in the last couple of weeks, because I think it's really a very common thing, and not a recent phenomenon. I guess I'm just noticing it more. As an aside, it seems weird to me that this is cited as the reason for a person's arrest, with no mention of the original crime for which the person was imprisoned and then put on parole.
Then on some TV shows I watched recently, the same theme came up:
On Our America with Lisa Ling she was following the case of a guy who was a registered sex offender, and it seemed very likely that his initial arrest and conviction had been based on false testimony. Now he was getting out of prison, on parole, and trying to live in the community under the rules sex offenders must follow. So the whole point of the story was that this poor guy was wrongly accused and convicted, and now years later, he's getting out of prison, but must forever live with this stigma of being a registered sex offender. However, he couldn't follow the rules he was supposed to follow, and by the end of the show, he was back in prison. One of the rules he's broken was having a cell phone with internet access, which he wasn't supposed to have. His whole stance was that he just stumbled into this trouble.
Then I was watching a marathon of Pit Bulls and Parolees on Animal Planet. In case you're not familiar with the show, it's about a woman and her adult children who run a large dog rescue and shelter, and they hire parolees and help give them a chance to turn their lives around. In one episode, the one guy on parole who's like one of the main guys at the rescue, gets arrested for "felony evading" and a weapons violation and gets sent back to prison. He was evidently riding his motorcycle, and when the police tried to pull him over for speeding, he decided to try to outrun them, crashed, and they found an illegal gun on him. I'm like "Seriously? You get out of prison, this woman takes the chance on hiring you, you end up learning a lot, saving a lot of dogs, and actually living a life in which you can be proud of yourself and earn respect from others, and you decide to carry an illegal firearm, which you're forbidden to do as a parolee, and when the police try to pull you over, you decide to try to get away?????" Once again, the talk among the people on the show was about how some guys just find it hard to "stay out of trouble."
I used to hear that all the time when I worked in Philly--people talking about a family member or some acquaintance who "kept getting locked up" for probation or parole violations because they just "couldn't stay out of trouble." They talk about this like they're talking about a blind person accidently stepping into a puddle.
Most of us really don't have much difficulty being law-abiding citizens. I'm not talking about complicated laws like the US tax code, just the basics of the criminal code of the state we live in. But I would think that if I'd committed some crime in the past and I was now blessed to be out on parole, I'd certainly make damn sure I followed all the rules so as never to get locked up again.
Now please don't jump in with examples of people with mental illness or addiction problems. Leave them out of this. What I'm talking about is people whose behavior is not driven by some intense physical addiction, and is not determined by problems in cognition and judgment secondary to a severe mental illness. People who just make impossibly bad decisions and by doing so, break the law.
So you're on parole, released from prison from serving time for whatever crime you committed. You are given a bunch of rules that parolees have to follow: No weapons, no drinking, no associating with other felons, maybe you get a curfew, maybe depending on your crime, you have a rule like not being able to have a cell phone with internet access. Why can't you just follow those rules? How hard is that? I mean, the alternative is being in prison! I'm a fan of firearms and I love my wine, and I am always going online on my smart phone, but if I was told those things would get me locked up in prison, I'd happily refrain for whatever duration of time it was required of me. And if I were driving and a police officer tried to pull me over, I'd pull the hell over and be completely compliant. I certainly wouldn't decide I could outrun the police.
The guy on the pit bull show really angered me. He was given this awesome opportunity and he was really turning his life around, and then his did this? He not only hurt himself, but the people who had come to trust and rely upon him, and the dogs he had wanted to save. He just kind of shrugged and said "I thought I could outrun the police on my motorcycle."
So, aside from the people with bona fide mental illness who exercise impulsive judgment, and people with bona fide addiction who relapse back into using, how is this lack of judgment explained?
I am all for second chances, but what if a person blows his second chance but knowingly breaking simple rules that have been laid down for him? Does he deserve a third chance? A tenth chance? A hundredth chance?
The people of whom you're speaking have two things going on with them. They are criminal thinking patterns and criminal behavior patterns. You think responsibly and emphatically. They don't.
Neither the criminal thinking nor criminal behavior pattern is addressed in prison. Thus, when they get out the same basic problem exists. They are who they are and nothing has happened to change that. Their thinking process and behavior just gets them back into the same situations that got them sent to prison in the first place ( or second, third, etc.)
That's why family and friends say they just can't stop getting in trouble. What seems simple to you and I ( following phone rules, felon not having a gun, etc. ) is does not register in the thought process of a criminal.
Probably long term cognitive therapy could help. However, it's probably not offered in prison and to accept therapy and have it work, one has to want to change. That's the tough part.
But even if there is such a thing as criminal thinking patterns, doesn't the person consider the possible and likely consequences at all?
For instance, if I were driving and a police officer attempted to pull me over, if I were a person with "criminal thinking" I might consider fleeing (for whatever payoff). But then I would consider the odds that I would be caught (98%) and the odds that I'd get away (may 2%) so I would conclude that the risk is not worth whatever I might gain out of it. What would the gain be? I don't know, not being a criminal, maybe it's the thrill of a police chase? But what payoff would be worth the near-certainty of being caught and going back to prison?
If I were a person with "criminal thinking" and I encountered a situation in which I could break the law but the chances were extremely low that I'd be caught, I could at least understand the decision to break the law.
Maybe totally separate from antisocial thinking and impulsive judgment is a different problem: the inability to predict consequences, and to predict the odds of those consequences happening? Maybe habitual criminals have an unrealistic sense of the likelihood of a negative outcome to their actions? Maybe they "think positively" when they shouldn't?
The pit bull guy sees police lights behind him, and figures the odds of his getting away are like 95%. I could be in the exact same position and I'd figure the odds of my getting away at maybe 5%. So despite the fact that I have no desire to do something that could harm others (a high speed chase) and no desire to be a criminal, and the criminal might have a lack of regard for the safety of others, and get a thrill out of a chase, the key factor is that I have a strong belief that I won't get away with it, and he has a strong belief that he will.
So maybe a big part of rehabilitation that isn't being addressed is realistically predicting consequences? Maybe leave out the whole idea of "I shouldn't do X because it's wrong" or "I shouldn't do X because it's illegal, and I want to improve my life." Instead maybe focus on the idea "If I do X, the chances are very high that I'll get caught and end up back in prison, and for longer next time." It's really not possible to teach morality, and it's very difficult to teach weighing decisions, but it may be possible to teach (a willing person) that their odds-figuring is flawed, and how to better figure odds of a bad outcome.
But even if there is such a thing as criminal thinking patterns, doesn't the person consider the possible and likely consequences at all?
Most likely not. There's an interesting book that I read a few years ago about what goes on in the mind of a criminal, Insidethe Criminal Mind by Stanton Samenow, PhD. The author believes that all criminals share a particular mind-set--often evident in childhood--that is disturbingly different from that of a responsible citizen. http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5..._Criminal_Mind
Those who have never been to prison, mistakingly believe prisons are nothing more than hell-holes, and project themselves into these situations: If I were them!
Please! Stop the projections!
Well, if you've never been to prison, how would you know!!! Inconceivably, to the projectors, to some, prisons are idyllic, paradisical places compared to the never-ending struggle to succeed outside the walls, with a tattoo on your forehead: Felon! Or Sex Offender!
Back in the 90's I wrote to over a dozen inmates in prison around the country, and it was an eye-opener, for sure! Would you believe it that some of these inmates pity those trying to struggle to make a living on the outside the world? And have no wish to go through all that masochism we face every day!
Curiously, back in the late 60's, I got a parking fine which I thought was baseless, good lord, it was only a $6 fine, I had the money to pay it, but on principal, and being stubborn, I lied to the judge, told him I didn't have the money! Off to Jail I went! For a 3-day sentence! Now mind you, this was a medium-sized city in MN!
I only served 2 days of the sentence, but during those 2 days I got a glimpse of how extremely addicting incarceration could be! 3 fairly-decent meals delivered to you everyday, TV screens, interesting people to talk/laugh with and share stories, and a library chuck full of books and magazines!
When they told me my sentence was completed after 2 days, I was crushed and angry! I had only gotten thru a half stack of National Geographics!
First of all, let me explain to you what probation/parole means (and a lot of people don't realize this). The government has decide to take a chance on you and not put you in jail (or keep you there any longer). They have given you a great gift. This means you have to be the best citizen they have. Not just a good citizen, but the BEST, a shining example for everyone else to be.
Anything, ANYTHING that a normal citizen might be able to do that would shine poorly on the government, you can't do. A normal citizen may be able to read de Sade in the privacy of their home, perhaps try their hand at such writing, but that's forbidden to you because that is not an example of what the best citizen should be like.
EVERYTHING you do must be considered of whether or not it is an example of what the best citizen is like. If indeed these are the actions of someone to show how grateful they are for the gift of freedom the government has allowed them.
Now, with all that said, how many of us could keep up such a standard of conduct, especially in a media world that constantly bombards us with carnal temptations? And that's just from the standpoint that most of us are good to begin with, that we don't have the label that will follow us around for the rest of our lives that we are forever bad and hence second class citizens.
Could anyone maintain such a standard of conduct when we see what other people have and what we cannot have? When we constantly taught to want, to have. When, despite that have to be the best citizen, we are constantly told that we are not and we shall never be.
Secondly, realizing that such a sword hangs over our head, most people will probably see that sooner or later, there will be something, somehow, that lands them back behind bars. So why is it so surprising that they would run and go for the chance of escaping? Because to them, any encounter with the police is probably seen as a ticket back to the big house.
Finally,
Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover
Those who have never been to prison, mistakingly believe prisons are nothing more than hell-holes, and project themselves into these situations: If I were them!
Please! Stop the projections!
Well, if you've never been to prison, how would you know!!! Inconceivably, to the projectors, to some, prisons are idyllic, paradisical places compared to the never-ending struggle to succeed outside the walls, with a tattoo on your forehead: Felon! Or Sex Offender!......
Exactly! Now I may not have said it that way, but it does illustrate how "good" people just don't have a clue about what the other side is about.
Setting aside for a minute the guy on the reality show, most people come out of prison absolutely flat broke and with very few ways to make a real living. A convicted felon has limited employment opportunities and whatever family relationships he had are probably shattered. Also, even if he comes out to an intact family, they most likely start putting immediate pressure on him to contribute financially and to solve other family issues that he's very poorly equipped to handle. It's not difficult to imagine the desperation such a person feels and how he might not be able to think through options.
Also, you said not to consider addiction, but alcohol added to any situation tends to make things more volatile. A sober guy might make all sorts of promises to himself about how he's going to behave once outside of prison, but beer at a family barbecue might change all that. Plus, it often doesn't take much to have parole or probation revoked. An argument with a spouse followed by a call to a person's parole officer is enough in some cases. Plus, if a parolee doesn't have many housing options and is living someplace where drugs are available may not be able to resist smoking marijuana or using cocaine. Even one positive drug test might be enough to revoke parole.
It's easy to say "I'd never do this, that or the other thing," but until you've been in such a situation, it's not really possible to understand everything that is going on.
1. Many young people are being raised these days without learning the consequences of their actions. They crash a car in a video game - press reset and you are good to go! Or they watch someone crash on TV, then get out of the car and they are fine. Also these young people break small rules and are not punished by their parents or society. Like littering for example.
2. These young people are impatient, impulsive, and are not capable of thinking about the future or have not learned to do so. They do not think about a payment being due until the day it comes in the mail. All they care about is right now. So thinking about where their actions may lead them in the future is just not something which happens!
I don't accept poverty as an excuse for criminal behavior. Plenty of people live in poverty and manage to not break the law. People who knowingly choose to violate the rules of parole (like eluding the police, buying an illegal gun) are not exactly the same as Dickensian street urchins stealing food so as not to starve to death.
But I'm very interested in this idea from the other poster, who seems to assert that the standards set for parolees are so high that no one, not even the average law abiding citizen, could adhere to them. I also saw the attitude on other websites when I looked into this topic. I want to know, what rules, exactly, are too hard to follow?
If the rule is to have a job, get a job (there are plenty of programs for parolees) and make damned sure you are on time or early every day, and that you work your butt off so as not to get fired. If you do get laid off through no fault of your own, go immediately to your PO and ask what to do. They have to have some process unemployed parolees have to go through. Then take ANY job offered and treat it like the best job in the world, even if it's shoveling poop. One guy on Pit Bulls and Parolees was terrible: he showed up for his job interview having forgotten his application and paperwork, he barely listened to the rescue owner when she gave him instructions, and she still gave him a chance to work for her and do maintenance. He was told to not go into the dog kennels, but he kept going in them to pet the dogs, and in one day, he let three of them get loose (a potentially deadly thing), and he was told again to stay out of the kennels. But then he did it again. So he was fired and should have been, and hopefully went straight back to prison.
If the rule is don't drink, just don't drink. If co-workers ask you to happy hour after work, say "No, sorry, I can't, but thanks." If a pretty girl wants you to go out for a drink, so no, let's go for coffee. Again, let's leave addiction out of this because that clouds the issue.
If the rule is to go to therapy, go. Attend every single scheduled session, rain, sleet, snow, even if you have to walk. You would not believe the people who could not even get to a scheduled session and had every excuse in the book.
If the rule is to stay away from other felons, stay away from them. If you know felons and they try to call you or come visit, tell them you're on parole and not allowed to see them, and if they care at all about you, to leave you alone for now, and you wish them well. If they keep showing up at your door, call the police on them.
If you can't have a cell phone with internet, get a cheap non-smart phone. Period. If you can't own some other object, don't buy it. Shoot, if they gave me a rule that I couldn't have electricity, I'd just live without it if it meant being out of prison.
You mention "carnal temptations"; please explain. If you mean sex, say that. Are parolees forbidden to have sex? If so, I would still be able to refrain from it if I were given a second chance to rebuild my life. Reading and writing S&M erotica? (that's what you allude to) Well, I can certainly abstain from that, because I don't do it now. I don't see the difficulty.
My whole point is: you are offered freedom, along with certain rules. No matter how strict you perceive those rules to be, you follow them. No matter how ridiculous you think the rule is, you still follow it.
Maybe the other poster is onto something, maybe prisons are a bit of a paradise to some. To me, my freedom is worth a great deal. But to some, maybe they would trade-off freedom for 3 meals, a bed, a gym, TV, music, library, and free health care. I find that very sad, but I guess it's possible or we wouldn't have socialism. So these people who keep violating parole all just WANT to be back in prison? surely that can't explain all of them, or even a majority of them. Maybe a minority of them might enjoy or "get addicted" to incarceration.
I don't accept poverty as an excuse for criminal behavior. Plenty of people live in poverty and manage to not break the law. People who knowingly choose to violate the rules of parole (like eluding the police, buying an illegal gun) are not exactly the same as Dickensian street urchins stealing food so as not to starve to death.
Did you read the link I posted? You can accept it or not, but a controlled study shows that poverty limits one's ability to make good decisions.
But I'm very interested in this idea from the other poster, who seems to assert that the standards set for parolees are so high that no one, not even the average law abiding citizen, could adhere to them. I also saw the attitude on other websites when I looked into this topic. I want to know, what rules, exactly, are too hard to follow?
If the rule is to have a job, get a job (there are plenty of programs for parolees) and make damned sure you are on time or early every day, and that you work your butt off so as not to get fired.
Can you describe these numerous programs for parolees and the jobs they provide? How many jobs are there? Do they pay a living wage?
A person has to be able to get to the job. They either have to have transportation or they need to live close enough to walk or take public transportation. These things do not always go hand-in-hand.
If you do get laid off through no fault of your own, go immediately to your PO and ask what to do. They have to have some process unemployed parolees have to go through.
How do you know this? What is the process?
Then take ANY job offered and treat it like the best job in the world, even if it's shoveling poop. One guy on Pit Bulls and Parolees was terrible: he showed up for his job interview having forgotten his application and paperwork, he barely listened to the rescue owner when she gave him instructions, and she still gave him a chance to work for her and do maintenance. He was told to not go into the dog kennels, but he kept going in them to pet the dogs, and in one day, he let three of them get loose (a potentially deadly thing), and he was told again to stay out of the kennels. But then he did it again. So he was fired and should have been, and hopefully went straight back to prison.
If the rule is don't drink, just don't drink. If co-workers ask you to happy hour after work, say "No, sorry, I can't, but thanks." If a pretty girl wants you to go out for a drink, so no, let's go for coffee. Again, let's leave addiction out of this because that clouds the issue.
To me, this statement of yours says it all. You seem to think parolees waltz out of prison and go to work in offices where people gather for happy hours after work. You appear to be very disconnected from the lives of poor people. That's a good thing for you, but it also explains your inability to understand this issue.
If the rule is to go to therapy, go. Attend every single scheduled session, rain, sleet, snow, even if you have to walk. You would not believe the people who could not even get to a scheduled session and had every excuse in the book.
What if you have to work? If the person skips work to go to therapy, he'll lose his job and be in violation of the terms of parole. If he skips therapy to go to work, same thing. And the therapy isn't free. How is the person supposed to pay for it?
If the rule is to stay away from other felons, stay away from them. If you know felons and they try to call you or come visit, tell them you're on parole and not allowed to see them, and if they care at all about you, to leave you alone for now, and you wish them well. If they keep showing up at your door, call the police on them.
If you can't have a cell phone with internet, get a cheap non-smart phone. Period. If you can't own some other object, don't buy it. Shoot, if they gave me a rule that I couldn't have electricity, I'd just live without it if it meant being out of prison.
You mention "carnal temptations"; please explain. If you mean sex, say that. Are parolees forbidden to have sex? If so, I would still be able to refrain from it if I were given a second chance to rebuild my life. Reading and writing S&M erotica? (that's what you allude to) Well, I can certainly abstain from that, because I don't do it now. I don't see the difficulty.
My whole point is: you are offered freedom, along with certain rules. No matter how strict you perceive those rules to be, you follow them. No matter how ridiculous you think the rule is, you still follow it.
Maybe the other poster is onto something, maybe prisons are a bit of a paradise to some. To me, my freedom is worth a great deal. But to some, maybe they would trade-off freedom for 3 meals, a bed, a gym, TV, music, library, and free health care. I find that very sad, but I guess it's possible or we wouldn't have socialism. So these people who keep violating parole all just WANT to be back in prison? surely that can't explain all of them, or even a majority of them. Maybe a minority of them might enjoy or "get addicted" to incarceration.
Tracy, it appears to me that you have lived a very sheltered life and have never seen poverty and despair up close, or, you simply prefer to create distance between yourself and those you perceive as "other." You seem to assume that there are well-funded programs out there that support probationers and parolees. And that there are jobs that pay a living wage for those convicted of felonies. And that there is affordable housing and transportation available for the asking.
You should ask around in your community and find some law enforcement, probation or parole officers to talk to. Or, as a mental health professional, volunteer in a counseling program for offenders. I doubt if it would be long until you had a better understanding of why someone might violate the the terms of their probation or parole.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I had only gotten thru a half stack of National Geographics!
