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I have a good friend who has been arrested on multiple parole violations. He's a pretty smart guy with really poor impulse control and probably a few sociopathic tendencies.
Now, I say he's a good friend because he's the first person to drop everything to help someone he cares about. He will literally give you the shirt off his back. But he's crazy-impulsive with very bad judgment. Fortunately, he doesn't have a violent bone in his body and he really does care about other people. But that's not gonna keep him out of jail. He's in his 40s and I have to say he does seem to be learning how to restrain himself, but man... what a learning curve!
This guy, however, was not raised in poverty - he came from a really decent background that I just don't think involved a "consequences-based" upbringing.
I also have known two men who grew up in TERRIBLE circumstances, surrounded by poverty, mental illness, drug abuse, gang activity, etc. One pulled himself out of that world and the other just kind of pulled himself a few rungs out of it. They have a totally different perspective on rules and authority than someone from a stable and reasonably healthy upbringing. It's a totally different perspective. To a certain extent both of them have done a cost-benefit analysis and decided that behaving in mostly legal ways is to their benefit. But they reserve the right to revert to their old ways when their backs are against the wall. Both are very high-IQ and one of them has a very solid moral code. But if they think they can get away with lawlessness and it will benefit them without directly harming someone else... they'll do it without a second thought.
I used the example of de Sade because many years ago, there was a parole violation case of where a child molester was taken back because in his private diary, he was writing fantasies of offenses against children. Many were objecting to such governmental actions under the 1st amendment, but it was an example of a gift from the government not properly "appreciated", ie, being the best citizen a country has. It was just clearer to make that point using de Sade instead of trying to find the actual case.
I'm about to go to sleep, so I shall have to address this in depth later, but two things....and then a third.
............and then tell me that television does not work to massively tempt the carnal desires....boy or girl?
Secondly, it has been stated that there are places that provide jobs for parolees and probationers. Well, consider the contradiction of that.
One is not suppose to associate with convicted felons and yet, they are probably not the only convicted felon that is working there. Even if we say "Well, work and therapy sessions are excluded", we still have the conflict of spending at least 8 hours a day with someone that one is not suppose to associate with hence to, at least, harm their recovery, at the very least.
Finally, if one wants to find out about the real world, I would not use a reality show in the common era to do such. The most I would use those shows for would be to get the names of researchers they present and then go off to the databanks to see what they have written and published.
I am a convicted felon, and I am currently on intensive supervised probation. I have been on probation since 2011 and will be until 2017.
Some of it is easy, some of it isn't. The conditions of my probation are seemingly very simple: no drinking, no drugs, no associating with other felons, no interstate travel, pay fines, maintain a job and/or college schedule, no firearms. The easy ones are no associating with other felons, no interstate travel, and no firearms. This 3 year old felony is preventing me from finding any kind of work. I can't even get an interview with McDonald's. I have 4 years of previous experience with McD's. I owe $235 to the college so I can't register til I pay it, and with no job this is not possible. With no job I also cannot pay my fines. Today is the 9th day of the month and I only have half of LAST month's rent saved up. The Internet bill and electric bill are long overdue. My car insurance got cancelled. My only source of income is plasma donation, and all that does is pay the gas bill.
It is not as easy as you think. I can see the appeal of staying in jail or prison to tell you the truth. I've thought about just doing the rest of my probation sentence in prison. That way I don't have to worry about not making rent. I don't have to worry about the light bill or Internet bill. I get free healthcare (I have Crohn's and no insurance) and free college education. I get free food. Plenty of people to talk with, and if I want to sleep all day then I can. I can watch TV all day. By the time my sentence is up, I will have taken a few training courses in welding and mechanic work etc. Prison is not all that bad unless you are a sex offender or gay.
I kind of rambled off topic there. Your question was following rules of probation. Well, as I said earlier, I have Crohn's disease and no insurance. It hurts. A lot. Marijuana has always alleviated this pain and has always given me an appetite when I would otherwise have none. But of course I get drug tested once a month. I break this rule every month. My probation officer did threaten to violate my probation after the 4th prositve test, but that was my own stupidity. I had a system that worked to pass the tests and I got careless and cocky. It's back in place. For those of you who are about to say "so you can't afford all those bills but can afford your pot?" No. I have a friend who grows it and he gives me 1 little bag a month for free because he sympathizes with my situation.
Wow, I've completely lost sight of any point I was trying to make. Don't know why. Just wanted to say I guess that it's not as easy as you may think. I don't have a gun or anything and if a cop pulled me over (has happened 5 or 6 times since I've been on probation) I will comply and be respectful. I would never run from a cop...and I'm trying not to ruin my freedom because despite my 2nd paragraph I do prefer freedom to incarceration. Though it wasn;t bad, it certainly was boring after the first month. I am terrified, though, that since I am so behind on my payments and can't find a job/school, she will revoke my probation soon. I am $200 behind on superivision fees and my fines were supposed to have been paid off by January 2014...I still owe about $1200.
The system does not make it easy for us felons. I haven't found any programs that assist felons in getting jobs, at least not in my area. It's hard enough for anyone to get a job down here...much less someone with "receiving stolen goods" on their record. Employers are very judgmental about it, and I do understand.,,..why hire a thief when there are 100 other non-thieves applying for the same position?
I do see many many people getting their probation/parole revoked every month I go in. Usually they are on for robbery or burglary or assault, a lot of drug dealers. Many of them just don't stop. Especially the dealers. There is still money to be made when they can;'t find legitimate work. The robbers and burglars are just plain stupid. That's about all that amounts to.
It's rough, man. I don't know if I answered your question, but that's my 2 cents on probation violations.
Last edited by LordHelmit; 09-09-2014 at 12:31 PM..
LordHelmit, thank you for your input! At least you have real experience to share. And you don't seem to be blaming the problem on poverty.
Here in PA and NJ, tons of people get food stamp cards, including parolees, so I guess that's not true everywhere. I've known people earning $40,000 and still getting food stamps cards!
I guess I figured that if a person is on parole, and they are required to have a job, that the system helps to set them up with a job. I am shocked that a person is just let out and told "get a full time job immediately or you're back in prison" with no assistance offered. I would think that the state would have a motivation to offer some assistance because it's more expensive to keep a person locked up. The state has no gain from setting up people intentionally for failure.
Someone mentioned a guy having the choice between going to a therapy appointment of going to their job. This is not likely to happen. I worked in a non-profit mental health clinic for years and had many clients required to attend as a condition of probation or parole. We would schedule the appointments around their work schedule. The ones who were motivated kept their appointments, and if their work schedule changed, they promptly called to change their appointment. the ones who skipped appointments were not skipping them because of a job; it was always some flimsy excuse.
Also, in many places (PA is my state) therapy is covered by Medicaid or on a sliding-scale fee which slides all the way to zero. Again, I live in an area where it's exceedingly easy to get on Medicaid. Even with a decent salary, people "buy into" it. I'm sure in some other states it might not be as easy. But we were a non-profit clinic, and if a person did not have Medicaid/medical assistance and they were required to have therapy as a condition of probation/parole, we provided it and put them on zero-fee or county funding.
Too the people who say I'm "sheltered": maybe so. But I still have common sense. I'm given a rule, and I follow it. I did the read the poverty article. It was about the interference of immediate concerns about paying for food and bills on cognition. The two men I highlighted in my initial post did not have such concerns (not knowing where their next meal would come from, not having a job). So the "impairment" described in the article does not apply to them, and doesn't apply in all cases.
I am a convicted felon, and I am currently on intensive supervised probation. I have been on probation since 2011 and will be until 2017.
Some of it is easy, some of it isn't. The conditions of my probation are simple: no drinking, no drugs, no associating with other felons, no interstate travel, pay fines, maintain a job and/or college schedule, no firearms. The easy ones are no associating with other felons, no interstate travel, and no firearms. This 3 year old felony is preventing me from finding any kind of work. I can't even get an interview with McDonald's. I have 4 years of previous experience with McD's. I owe $235 to the college so I can't register til I pay it, and with no job this is not possible. With no job I also cannot pay my fines. Today is the 9th day of the month and I only have half of LAST month's rent saved up. The Internet bill and electric bill are long overdue. My car insurance got cancelled. My only source of income is plasma donation, and all that does is pay the gas bill.
It is not as easy as you think. I can see the appeal of staying in jail or prison to tell you the truth. I've thought about just doing the rest of my probation sentence in prison. That way I don't have to worry about not making rent. I don't have to worry about the light bill or Internet bill. I get free healthcare (I have Crohn's and no insurance) and free college education. I get free food. Plenty of people to talk with, and if I want to sleep all day then I can. I can watch TV all day. By the time my sentence is up, I will have taken a few training courses in welding and mechanic work etc. Prison is not all that bad unless you are a sex offender or gay.
I kind of rambled off topic there. Your question was following rules of probation. Well, as I said earlier, I have Crohn's disease and no insurance. It hurts. A lot. Marijuana has always alleviated this pain and has always given me an appetite when I would otherwise have none. But of course I get drug tested once a month. I break this rule every month. My probation officer did threaten to violate my probation after the 4th prositve test, but that was my own stupidity. I had a system that worked to pass the tests and I got careless and cocky. It's back in place. For those of you who are about to say "so you can't afford all those bills but can afford your pot?" No. I have a friend who grows it and he gives me 1 little bag a month for free because he sympathizes with my situation.
Wow, I've completely lost sight of any point I was trying to make. Don't know why. Just wanted to say I guess that it's not as easy as you may think. I don't have a gun or anything and if a cop pulled me over (has happened 5 or 6 times since I've been on probation) I will comply and be respectful. I would never run from a cop...and I'm trying not to ruin my freedom because despite my 2nd paragraph I do prefer freedom to incarceration. Though it wasn;t bad, it certainly was boring after the first month. I am terrified, though, that since I am so behind on my payments and can't find a job/school, she will revoke my probation soon. I am $200 behind on superivision fees and my fines were supposed to have been paid off by January 2014...I still owe about $1200.
The system does not make it easy for us felons. I haven't found any programs that assist felons in getting jobs, at least not in my area. It's hard enough for anyone to get a job down here...much less someone with "receiving stolen goods" on their record. Employers are very judgmental about it, and I do understand.,,..why hire a thief when there are 100 other non-thieves applying for the same position?
I do see many many people getting their probation/parole revoked every month I go in. Usually they are on for robbery or burglary or assault, a lot of drug dealers. Many of them just don't stop. Especially the dealers. There is still money to be made when they can;'t find legitimate work. The robbers and burglars are just plain stupid. That's about all that amounts to.
It's rough, man. I don't know if I answered your question, but that's my 2 cents on probation violations.
I'm not sure what the OP will have to say to you, but thanks for posting. You are articulate and thoughtful and yet appear to be struggling mightily. I think something like 80% of incarcerated people are high school dropouts and more than 50% can be classified as mentally ill. It's not hard to imagine that they have even fewer options than you do.
Tracy, it appears to me that you have lived a very sheltered life and have never seen poverty and despair up close, or, you simply prefer to create distance between yourself and those you perceive as "other."
You are confusing "poverty" with "people on parole." You refute any of my complaints about parolees with statements about poverty. That's a bit of an insult to poor people, isn't it? People can be poor and manage to not break the law.
...And people can have first hand experience with despair without having first hand experience with poverty.
You are confusing "poverty" with "people on parole." You refute any of my complaints about parolees with statements about poverty. That's a bit of an insult to poor people, isn't it? People can be poor and manage to not break the law.
...And people can have first hand experience with despair without having first hand experience with poverty.
You ask about what factors account for people going to prison after being on parole and/or probation. I answer that poverty is a contributing factor. That in no way insults poor people who follow the law. The fact is that being on parole/probation has requirements, such as fees that must be paid, with which one can comply only when one is employed and has income leftover after paying rent, eating and taking care of other immediate needs.
Also, as the article I cited indicates, poverty affects one's ability to make decisions. For some people, trying to figure out how to pay bills and keep a roof over their heads takes up so much cognitive energy (for lack of a better term) that they don't have much left to look at a situation rationally and walk away if it looks like it's going to escalate. I'm talking about situations likely to lead to charges of domestic violence, or drug use, or hanging around with felons. One person might be able to tell Cousin Bill, who just got out of prison and is looking for a chance to drink his first 6-pack in 10 years, not to come visit because he's not supposed to be hanging out with convicted felons. Another person, exhausted by life, might not be able to assess all the possible outcomes and say, "Sure, why not?"
Or, a convicted felon may carry a gun because they live in a crappy neighborhood and are afraid. Being stopped with a gun is usually an automatic revocation.
It seems that you want the answer to your question regarding a person's judgment to be that people violate parole and probation because they're stupid, or lack common sense. If that's what you already believe, why did you ask the question? I think that there are many factors that go into it and poverty plays a huge role. So do mental illness and lack of education. If you don't think there is a connection between poverty, the prison population and recidivism, I just don't know what to tell you.
Also, I don't really think you can base your assessment of the issue on episodes of "Pitbulls and Parolees."
Those who have never been to prison, mistakingly believe prisons are nothing more than hell-holes, and project themselves into these situations: If I were them!
Please! Stop the projections!
Well, if you've never been to prison, how would you know!!! Inconceivably, to the projectors, to some, prisons are idyllic, paradisical places compared to the never-ending struggle to succeed outside the walls, with a tattoo on your forehead: Felon! Or Sex Offender!
Back in the 90's I wrote to over a dozen inmates in prison around the country, and it was an eye-opener, for sure! Would you believe it that some of these inmates pity those trying to struggle to make a living on the outside the world? And have no wish to go through all that masochism we face every day!
Curiously, back in the late 60's, I got a parking fine which I thought was baseless, good lord, it was only a $6 fine, I had the money to pay it, but on principal, and being stubborn, I lied to the judge, told him I didn't have the money! Off to Jail I went! For a 3-day sentence! Now mind you, this was a medium-sized city in MN!
I only served 2 days of the sentence, but during those 2 days I got a glimpse of how extremely addicting incarceration could be! 3 fairly-decent meals delivered to you everyday, TV screens, interesting people to talk/laugh with and share stories, and a library chuck full of books and magazines!
When they told me my sentence was completed after 2 days, I was crushed and angry! I had only gotten thru a half stack of National Geographics!
Wow! Two whole days in "prison"! Hopefully you learned your lesson. Failure to pay parking fines is the gateway to more serious crimes like jay walking, spitting on the sidewalk and in some extreme case.. Littering!
You ask about what factors account for people going to prison after being on parole and/or probation. I answer that poverty is a contributing factor. That in no way insults poor people who follow the law. The fact is that being on parole/probation has requirements, such as fees that must be paid, with which one can comply only when one is employed and has income leftover after paying rent, eating and taking care of other immediate needs.
Also, as the article I cited indicates, poverty affects one's ability to make decisions. For some people, trying to figure out how to pay bills and keep a roof over their heads takes up so much cognitive energy (for lack of a better term) that they don't have much left to look at a situation rationally and walk away if it looks like it's going to escalate. I'm talking about situations likely to lead to charges of domestic violence, or drug use, or hanging around with felons. One person might be able to tell Cousin Bill, who just got out of prison and is looking for a chance to drink his first 6-pack in 10 years, not to come visit because he's not supposed to be hanging out with convicted felons. Another person, exhausted by life, might not be able to assess all the possible outcomes and say, "Sure, why not?"
Or, a convicted felon may carry a gun because they live in a crappy neighborhood and are afraid. Being stopped with a gun is usually an automatic revocation.
It seems that you want the answer to your question regarding a person's judgment to be that people violate parole and probation because they're stupid, or lack common sense. If that's what you already believe, why did you ask the question? I think that there are many factors that go into it and poverty plays a huge role. So do mental illness and lack of education. If you don't think there is a connection between poverty, the prison population and recidivism, I just don't know what to tell you.
Also, I don't really think you can base your assessment of the issue on episodes of "Pitbulls and Parolees."
I'm not basing my whole assessment of the issue on the TV show; it was merely what triggered me to start thinking about the issue.
Sure, poverty is a "contributing factor" to lots of things, but it's not an excuse. Some of the way you are presenting it, whether you mean to or not, makes it sounds like it's an excuse for crime. That's what is insulting to poor people.
Also, you need to consider that lots of people get out of prison and are not in poverty. The two men I mentioned who were profiled on TV were examples of that, but they are not unique (since there are two of them they're already not unique ).
I also don't buy that being exhausted by life is an excuse for a person who knows that can't go out for a beer to say yes t going out for a beer. You are given rules, you follow them, or you go back to prison. Sure stress affects your cognition and judgment, but it is not an excuse. The article cited does not present poverty or stress as an excuse, but you seem to be implying that it does.
And some of the rules that are broken are not easy to break. In order to obtain an illegal weapon, you have to put out some real effort. Sure you might live in a dangerous neighborhood, but if you're not allowed to own a gun, you're not allowed to own a gun. Plenty of people in dangerous neighborhoods don't own guns.
And don't even bring up mental illness. I've worked with people with mental illness for over 20 years, and they are not the people I'm talking about. Sure sometimes one of our mentally ill clients might end up on probation, or we might get a parolee with a real mental illness, but those were the people who kept their appointments and stayed out of trouble. It was the people on probation & parole who had no mental illness (but they'd picked up a "diagnosis of convenience" along the way) who kept violating and getting back into trouble. Plus, they might even prey upon our more vulnerable mentally ill clients.
I don't have some pre-planned agenda that all these people are stupid or lack common sense, and I'm not looking for that answer. I love how when I present a thread with questions, then people come back with posts, and I question things in those posts, how I get accused of posting something that I think I already know the answer to. I'm merely examining the arguments that people are presenting.
I'm not basing my whole assessment of the issue on the TV show; it was merely what triggered me to start thinking about the issue.
Sure, poverty is a "contributing factor" to lots of things, but it's not an excuse. Some of the way you are presenting it, whether you mean to or not, makes it sounds like it's an excuse for crime. That's what is insulting to poor people.
Also, you need to consider that lots of people get out of prison and are not in poverty. The two men I mentioned who were profiled on TV were examples of that, but they are not unique (since there are two of them they're already not unique ).
I also don't buy that being exhausted by life is an excuse for a person who knows that can't go out for a beer to say yes t going out for a beer. You are given rules, you follow them, or you go back to prison. Sure stress affects your cognition and judgment, but it is not an excuse. The article cited does not present poverty or stress as an excuse, but you seem to be implying that it does.
And some of the rules that are broken are not easy to break. In order to obtain an illegal weapon, you have to put out some real effort. Sure you might live in a dangerous neighborhood, but if you're not allowed to own a gun, you're not allowed to own a gun. Plenty of people in dangerous neighborhoods don't own guns.
And don't even bring up mental illness. I've worked with people with mental illness for over 20 years, and they are not the people I'm talking about. Sure sometimes one of our mentally ill clients might end up on probation, or we might get a parolee with a real mental illness, but those were the people who kept their appointments and stayed out of trouble. It was the people on probation & parole who had no mental illness (but they'd picked up a "diagnosis of convenience" along the way) who kept violating and getting back into trouble. Plus, they might even prey upon our more vulnerable mentally ill clients.
I don't have some pre-planned agenda that all these people are stupid or lack common sense, and I'm not looking for that answer. I love how when I present a thread with questions, then people come back with posts, and I question things in those posts, how I get accused of posting something that I think I already know the answer to. I'm merely examining the arguments that people are presenting.
We must just live in different communities, or see different populations. I question your assessment that lots of people who get out of prison aren't living in poverty. A quick google search shows that 80% of people in prison didn't graduate from high school and that the average yearly salary for a high-school dropout is about $20,000. I'd say that very few felons come out of prison with a job waiting, or easily find any kind of a job. Poverty may not be an excuse for violating parole, but as LordHelmit points out, despite his best efforts, it may be poverty that sends him back to prison if he can't pay his fines/fees. I'm sure some people would say they'd take any job to stay out and fault people for not working hard enough to earn enough money to live on. But no matter how hard you're willing to work, you still have to find someone to hire you, or you have to have skills and resources to start your own business.
And you don't want to talk about mental illness or substance abuse, but another quick google search shows that about 50% of people in prison show some signs of serious mental illness, while 57 to 80% have substance abuse issues.
Clearly, there are people who overcome those limitations and go on to lead productive lives. But many people start out way behind the curve for all kinds of reasons when they're sent to prison and cannot summon the effort to overcome the obstacles once they get out. It's a cliche, but I really think you have to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you can figure out what motivates them to either action or inaction.
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I had only gotten thru a half stack of National Geographics!
). 
