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Empathy is when you can put yourself into someone's shoes and feel their pain.
In other words, empathy is when you can simulate (or imagine) the same situation, except you are the main character in that story. You can imagine how you would feel if that happened to you.
So, you are looking at the situation and you can imagine that person's pain.
(although this is pain only from your perspective, they may not feel it, but you don't know that...)
So you are looking at that person, in that situation... and feel compassion?
You feel sorry for them because you know they are in pain (or rather you think they are, because you would have been, if you were in the same situation)
But even if you feel their pain, why would you feel sorry? Do all the people who can imagine someone's pain feel sorry for that person?
I am making a jump and jumping to this conclusion:
I am feeling sorry for them because I don't want the same thing to happen to me.
I believe in the golden rule: treat others as you want to be treated.
So, if I don't feel sorry for them, I will feel like "nature" will have a right to make me feel this pain too. (according to the golden rule, or karma rule).
And if I feel sorry for them, then it's like I am telling "nature", I don't want this to happen to me, so I don't want this to happen to them (because if I say that it's ok for this to happen to them, then I say that it's ok for this to happen to me).
So, I have compassion because first I can feel (or imagine) their pain and then realize that I don't want to feel this pain, don't want the same thing to happen to me... and second...I believe that nature is the equalizer, karma distributor, it makes things equal... and so if I believe that something is ok to happen to someone, then I believe that it's ok to happen to me...?
I believe that it's bad to do something and then to judge someone else for doing the same thing. I believe that I should either judge both of us or not judge either of us.
I wonder if others are thinking this way too? Or is it my christian upbringing?
And of course I wonder if compassion is something that you feel to make sure the same thing doesn't happen to you or it doesn't work the same way for others?
( I am talking about subconscious thinking here, I don't sit there and make a decision whether to feel compassion for someone or not consciously, but I do wonder what triggers that feeling subconsciously.)
Say my friend's child died. I can feel sympathy for that friend--pity, compassion, sorrow. But because I do not have kids and have never suffered the grief of losing one, I cannot feel true empathy for that friend. I can try to imagine what it might be like, but I have not experienced such a loss. I have not "been there."
Why would I feel sympathy for my friend? Because I love my friend and do not want her in such pain. It has nothing to do with what I would want for me, or the Golden Rule.
I would hope it's not your Christian upbringing leading you toward your conclusions. The whole point of Christianity is to be compassionate to all because it's the right thing to do. It's to be selfless. Hey, I may be an atheist, but I haven't forgotten 12 years of Catholic school. The story goes that Christ loved everyone, no matter what.
The whole point of Christianity is to be compassionate to all because it's the right thing to do. It's to be selfless.
But altruism is not what people think it is. Some things seem noble (because they accomplish noble purposes), but they are fundamentally selfish. Like giving gifts to someone: it's noble because it makes someone happy and helps them. But it's selfish because most people like to do it in order to bring JOY to self.
When we help someone and it does NOT please us, it's very painful to help. And such people usually grumble. Those who LIKE to help are usually only the ones who feel pleasure from helping. But fundamentally, it's for their pleasure (but it's good and noble because it also helps others). Why not help if that gives them pleasure?
Sometimes we help because we fear that others will judge us if we don't (we feel guilty because we are afraid of being judged). Sometimes we help because we know deep down that it's best for them and for us (as a group).
If you are ready to die for someone... are you doing it for them or for you? I would say: for YOU. Because to see them die would give you more pain than to die for them, so you would choose a path of a lesser pain for yourself.
Last edited by LoveWisdom; 12-01-2014 at 07:15 PM..
I can feel sympathy for that friend--pity, compassion, sorrow. But because I do not have kids and have never suffered the grief of losing one, I cannot feel true empathy for that friend. I can try to imagine what it might be like, but I have not experienced such a loss. I have not "been there."
I would say that you are right that you can't experience her pain for real. And even if you were in her place, you would be experiencing it differently from her. So yes, most people don't really know what kind of pain the other one is in even when they think they do, even when they think they can imagine, even when they experienced something similar.
But I still think that you have to imagine some sort of pain in order to understand that she is in pain. So in any case, it's empathy. I don't see how else you could "know" that she is in pain. We calculate things. We visually detect a situation and then use all available information to simulate what's going on and to interpret and understand. That's my belief anyways.
Why would I feel sympathy for my friend? Because I love my friend and do not want her in such pain. It has nothing to do with what I would want for me, or the Golden Rule.
Well, when you love someone, you become bonded with them (through the bond of love), they become a part of you. So when they feel pain, YOU feel pain. And YOU don't want to feel pain. So of course you want this pain to stop. And the only way for the pain to stop is if they stop being in pain. So of course you don't want them to be in pain. I think this kind of a calculation happens on a subconscious level. But on a conscious level we just think that we don't want someone we love to be in pain.
But when I was thinking of sympathy, in my mind I was picturing strangers. Like feeling sorry for a homeless person or someone whose car broke down on the road or someone who rec'd bad news that someone they knew had died... and so on.
The story goes that Christ loved everyone, no matter what.
About Christ, that's an interesting one. To love all means to show kindness to all. God's love is sometimes compared with charity or translated as charity because it's not about feeling, it's about doing kindness to all. We usually love the things that are pleasing to us. But to love with the charity kind of love, even things that are not pleasing to you... that's more like showing kindness regardless of what they do.
It's the right thing to do. And why? Because at the end, it will be best for all, including you, if you live in the world where all love each other (in other words, where people treat each other with kindness and forgiveness and care).
The reason that Christ loves all is because it's good for Christ. You know the saying: what's good for the goose is good for the gander? Or something like that... What's good for another is good for you because then "another" will be happy and won't have a reason to mistreat you and therefore you will be happy too. Christ would be wise. He would understand that to love all means to live in a happy world.
But if we're talking about feelings, could you feel love towards something that is really bad? Or do you focus on good parts when you love this person? Why would Christ love sinners? Because he sees the goodness in them. Because he sees the damage and that they do things "they know not" like he said. He said that blind is leading the blind. The world is a bunch of little children who are screwed up and confused and don't know the way. And any person who loves children would have compassion for them, would see their potential (when they grow up and could be great if you raise them right) and would love them as mother loves a little disobedient child.
There is usually a reason for everything, but most of the time we just are not aware of it.
To be honest, I'm never terribly concerned with whether or not I'm doing something for selfish reasons provided my selfish reasons don't undermine the positive impact my actions have on someone else. I think a little selfishness in moderation is a good thing considering it gives you a personal connection to seeing others through their hardships. I want to have some personal stake in whatever my neighbor is going through so I'll fight that much harder for them out of solidarity. The only time it becomes a problem is if you're doing something nice for the sake of appearances or out of guilt because that's putting your ego/emotional need for validation before the actual victim's needs. In the long run actions backed by egotistical desires rather than feeling like you have an honest stake in other people's success/failure tend to cause more damage and frequently have very negative unintended consequences.
For example, say I wanted to help solve some great social ill like poverty. This sounds like a noble endeavor, but if I was more focused on making myself out to be the good guy, or proving myself morally/intellectually superior to the opposition, I might ignore the people's actual needs for the sake of my ego. Then I would be just as guilty of stripping the poor of their right to self-determination as the evil 1% or whatever. Perhaps I would be viewed by my peers as a champion of justice simply for "sticking up" for the poor. Yet I may have simply reinforced a stigma against them as being unable to make good well-informed decisions on their own; thus, contributing to an institutionalized cultural bias of the upper middle class which devalues the poor and/or blue-collar workers as ignorant and in need of some outsider savior. Since I didn't listen to what they wanted for themselves, there's also a chance I may have technically reduced some suffering, but also failed to address the root of their troubles. I could have actually set them back years by putting my ego before their needs!
That's why I think a certain degree of selfishness is useful for helping people since it motivates you to tirelessly pursue a positive resolution for the person in need, but when you put your selfish feelings before their actual needs it becomes a problem. As my mama says, "All things in moderation." Intentions are what they are, but the impact our intentions have on others is more important. While the famous quote says "The road to hell is paved with good intentions," I think sometimes the reverse is just as true. Many people have done the right thing for all the wrong reasons.
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You can ignore this part of my post if you want. I just wanted to comment on the comparison between Karma and the Golden Rule. I know very little of Karma within the context of Hinduism or Buddhism, but I'm assuming we're talking about it as essentially meaning "if I do good things then good things will happen to me, but if I do bad things then bad things will happen to me." To my knowledge the Golden Rule doesn't say good things will happen to you if you're good. In fact, much of the Biblical context seems to warn Christians that they'll probably suffer irregardless of their actions or it is telling them to do good even when you know you won't receive any kindness in return. Jesus openly criticizes those who perform good works expecting something good in return:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke 6:27-36
27“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
The closest thing that comes to Karma (as I defined it above in quotations) is in Galatians 6 but even then it makes no promises that there will be an earthly reward for good deeds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatians 6:7-10 (NIV)
[7] Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. [8] Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. [9] Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. [10] Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Though at first glance it appears to say we will receive spiritual rewards simply by being good to our neighbors and enemies, we're also told in the oft quoted 1 Corinthians 13 that our faith and actions mean nothing without love. You can't do good deeds for the sake of being praised or rewarded and expect God to recognize or bless you. The Bible repeatedly emphasizes that good works motivated by love is an essential part of faith and fulfills the law of Scripture. Therefore, the Golden Rule and Karma (as I defined it in quotations) are not synonymous concepts. The Golden Rule makes no promise of earthly rewards and the Bible repeatedly chastises any who seek praise or benefit from their works as hypocrites.
I suppose I interpret this to mean that when the Golden Rule says to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" it's telling us to treat everyone how we want to be treated even if we don't expect to be treated in kind by the person we're helping. So, as a Christian, I suppose that even though I think some selfishness is good if you need to feel compassion in order to help someone. (It certainly helps motivate people, as I discussed earlier) However, I suppose I think it's also important to help someone even when we don't feel compassion, empathy or sympathy. So, if you see someone who needs help, even if you don't understand why, you should probably think to yourself "I don't get it, but I'd want someone to help me out if I was in trouble without having to justify/explain! Just tell me what you need and I'm there." From what I understand of the Golden Rule, that's probably what it really asks of us. If it makes you feel good to help others, and your main motivation is to feel good about helping others, then you're in for a rude awakening if you get involved with some of the heavier social issues of our time. Let me tell you, I can certainly list a lot of situations where helping people brought me nothing but frustration and heartache, but I did it anyway because that's what you do for people you love. Since the Bible commands us to love everyone, I guess that's what you're supposed to do for everyone, then.
... Gosh, I might want to rethink my "intentions are what they are but effects matter most" mentality considering the Bible says love gives our actions meaning. Maybe my point about "how prioritizing our egos over others' needs can undermine our efforts" is actually a good argument for the importance of incorporating love into all your actions...
But God does promise to reward in heaven. So it's still a reward driven system. ("Do not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing...do not seek praise from men.... But God who sees what you do in secret will reward you"
Helping is good regardless of the reasons because helping helps and it's the action that matters. However, if you're trying to gage or evaluate how worthy is the person for helping, then you should look at the following breakdown.
It's not what people think it is. And that's why God always said not to judge others because people don't really understand what's going on.
Here is what really going on:
Good character - is what people call a person who helps others because he just wants to help (either he feels the pain of the other as his own and wants to relieve both pains OR it brings him pleasure to help)
Good character - is what people call a person who helps others because he SHOULD (even though he doesn't want to; so either he doesn't feel the other person's pain or he doesn't feel pleasure from helping). But essencially "the should" reason means the person is either afraid of others judging him for not helping or he fears God's judgement.
Bad character - is what people call a person who doesn't help (helping doesn't bring him pleasure, he doesn't feel the other person's pain AND he is not afraid of judgement or punishment; so he is not motivated to help)
Bad character - is what people call a person who helps, but with "ulterior motives" - Ulterior motives means: not because he feels judgement or punishment, not because he feels the other person's pain, not because it brings him pleasure to give....BUT he helps because he is creating a benefit for himself (like if people think he is generous they will either like him more or praise him more or it will be beneficial for his business in different ways).
You feel sorry for them because you know they are in pain (or rather you think they are, because you would have been, if you were in the same situation)
But even if you feel their pain, why would you feel sorry? Do all the people who can imagine someone's pain feel sorry for that person?
I am making a jump and jumping to this conclusion:
I am feeling sorry for them because I don't want the same thing to happen to me.
I believe in the golden rule: treat others as you want to be treated.
So, if I don't feel sorry forthem, I will feel like "nature" will have a right to make me feel this pain too. (according to the golden rule, or karma rule).
And if I feel sorry for them, then it's like I am telling "nature", I don't want this to happen to me, so I don't want this to happen to them (because if I say that it's ok for this to happen to them, then I say that it's ok for this to happen to me).
Compassion and empathy are not the same thing as "feeling sorry for" a person.
"Feeling sorry for" someone is pity. Pity and empathy are very, very different.
With empathy or compassion, you are placing yourself and the other person on an equal level. With pity, you are placing the other person at a lower level.
Also, to get technical, "sympathy" is "feeling their pain." "Empathy" is understanding their pain because you've experienced something similar, and can imagine yourself in that person's experience.
But neither of those involves pity or "feeling sorry for" the person.
Actually Karma is the bad things...Darma is the good thing. So Bad Karma...there is no good karma.
Compassion is a virtue...is more than empathy and simpathy, is actually helping others. Empathy and simpathy are about emotions. Compassion conveys the emotion and the action.
As for the christian law of "karma", there are several passages on the New Testament saying if you treat others right you will be treated with mercy. Mt 7,12, Mt 7, 2.
Suffering is part of being human, any sistem (like the "new age") that tries to take away pain...is unrealistic.
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