Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
As detailed oriented as I am at task I've found:
:Get to the point,!
:What was your point?
Or the..So long as I remain vague..I can't be challenged...Safe zone!
Clarification is a part of communication.
My one co worker would say,,stop being cryptic when I ask you a direct question !!!
He didn't quite grasp that the answers were more complex then a yes or no. Mind you on any given day the rules changed contingent on who was driving the company...
Another co worker hates anything beyond a yes or no. Again her question is loaded,a sane person would take time to listen.
My favorite is this:
Traveler: sir can I drive over to market Street?
Me: yes and no
Traveler: huh?
Me: you ",can" drive. And market is a car passing road. The problem is for the next two weeks it's closed because of a water main flood.
Perhaps it is due to the declining ability of primary and secondary schools to educate kids to read, write, think creatively and express themselves in a coherent manner. As it gets worse, the habit of poor communication descends through the generations.
Jakealope, I agree with you so strongly in your initial OP post! And it is not a matter of privacy nor not wanting to divulge in all the very good examples you present in your initial OP post. Privacy has absolutely nothing to do with all the examples you gave.
Those are excellent examples in your initial OP post! The examples illustrate the states of mind of the people in the examples, the way their mind works, their psychology, their inattention to detail, their inability to communicate coherently, their lack of precision, their inability to put themselves in the place of the receiver of the information, their inability to focus, laziness of mind and attitude.
^^^^^What he/she said...Particularly, laziness of mind and attitude is a nice way to put it. I would have been much more blunt.
But I constantly find myself scratching my head and thinking why can't people give a couple of details and not make others have to ask questions and pull information out of them. .... She looked at me kind of funny and said "Well, yeah it's off of Oak." Well, why not say the house off of Oak on Elm?
This involves at least 2 emotional/mental issues. One is Toxic Shame which makes many folks feel a little lacking or inadequate and the other issue is that many Shame-based folks believe others either can or SHOULD read their minds so they do not have to get clear and specific about anything since it's your RESPONSIBILITY to read their mind! It's a very subtle aspect of faulty self worth where the vague person is actually hiding from you.
Quote:
My husband never uses last names when talking about people. He says "I was talking to Lynn and she said..........". I find myself immediately thinking that I know 2 Lynn's who I talk to frequently and he plays golf with a Lynn and works with another Lynn, so I stop him and ask "Which Lynn?" He then acts annoyed.
It is typical of folks carrying toxic shame to get "annoyed" when questioned because it triggers their sense of not being enough plus it triggers their defenses from childhood when their parents used phony questions such as "why did you do that?" or "When are you going to grow up?" which are not questions at all but are attacks disguised as questions.
Quote:
So I ask him if he thinks I can read his mind and he says no. He does this all the time.
Well he knows that a "yes" answer will make him look ludicrous but he secretly wants or expects you to read his mind thus sparing him the SHAME of being open, honest and CLEAR with you. His irritation is a dead give away that he is carrying shame and guilt but he keeps it hidden with DENIAL and/or IRRITATIONS.
Quote:
I run several recreational sports leagues and communicate with hundreds of team captains through email. I always remind team captains to please identify their team name, league and flight when they contact me so that I can better help them. Yet they constantly send me one line emails such as "Our Sunday game was rained out." Nothing in the subject line, no league name, no team name, no date, nothing identifying anything at all.
It's a toxic shame problem - especially for men. They stay vague so they won't expose their lack of education, communication skills, knowledge, understanding, comprehension, details, etc. while fully expecting OTHERS to fill in the gaps and NEVER question them!
Quote:
and we would have driven around for twenty minutes texting each other so we could find each other and we'd have been late to our meeting". I just laughed but thought that was so true.
Some people just don't want to be clear and responisible lest they make a mistake or seem "dumb" so being vague saves face even if it's inconvenient (for others).
Quote:
I don't get it. Why is it so hard for most people to be specific so that others are not having to figure out what they mean? It's so much easier to give details and avoid back and forth questions. I know a few other people who notice the same thing, and we often talk about being in a minority. We just can't figure it out.
Read about Toxic Shame and it will all come clear. Much of this vagueness is an emotional defense system designed to make others take responsibility, stick their necks out, and put their intelligence and skills on the line while the Vague person sits back and watches from the comfort of their cloud of DENIAL. It's a by-product of early childhood conditioning where a child learns that it's better to be vague and play "dumb" about things and then be punished less than if the child is clear and precise and is told "You should have known better!" ...followed by a WHACK on the but or head!
You haven't asked but your best defense against such dishonest, shame-based folks is to never save or rescue them from their own "games" and don't be afraid to stand up to them - especially a spouse or they will use you right up. It's a game and they have mastered the art of letting others carry the ball and do the leg work FOR THEM. Make them be and act RESPONSIBLE or you will be baby sitting them until you die and the Vague, shame-based other's couldn't care LESS!
Thank you for this post. this is something I should work on, especially at work.
It's funny you mention work, because this is the area where I really noticed that the problem was rampant. I think it comes from my last job where I worked for nearly 15 years. My co-worker and I handled proposals and received proposal requests from a large group of people. We got very tired of getting requests with one sentence. So we put together a checklist of items that were basic requirements for any proposal request. The checklist we created was not very long. We asked for:
Name of Requester
Date of Request
Date Proposal Needed
Customer Name
Customer address
Was formal bid issued? If yes, provide bid documents or link.
General Scope of Work, details can be provided later as we progress with the process
When we put this checklist together, my co-worker and I asked each other "Who in the world would ask for a proposal and not include that basic info anyway?" These are educated people. And the reason we created the checklist is because we had to ask for the SAME basic information from the SAME people over and over and over. Why couldn't they learn when they are asked for the same information over and over.
So, Bill, I'm not trying to pick on you and I'm not trying to start an argument. If you communicate this way, what goes on in your mind? I'd really like to know.
It's a toxic shame problem - especially for men. They stay vague so they won't expose their lack of education, communication skills, knowledge, understanding, comprehension, details, etc. while fully expecting OTHERS to fill in the gaps and NEVER question them!
It's funny that you point this out. I deal with both men and women in the recreational sports leagues. Based on 15 years of handling these leagues I can say that men do this far more than women. With the sport leagues, I am an independent contractor, so I can simply tell people politely that I cannot take any action until information is provided. The men rarely acknowledge the request. However, women tend to be quick to apologize with replies like "Oops. I wasn't thinking." or "Duh, thought you could read my mind, ".
At my former job, the men were far worse than the women. I got the feeling that it was a power play to "put women in their place". My female co-worker agreed. In their minds (the men), they are busy and important and women are supposed to chase them down and coax the information out of them. Sadly, management condoned that behavior because 80% of the employees were men.
Below is an example of a communication with a former boss at former job. BTW, my boss at that time was a man and he was a very nice person. I'll use "PWNP" as an acronym for People Who Need Proposals.
Boss: I see you're having a hard time gathering the date for our weekly report.
Me: Yes. I send out an email to each PWNP every Monday and ask for their data. I even provide them a list of projects that we need data for. If they don't respond by Wednesday I send a reminder. If they still don't respond I call and ask for it or leave a voicemail.
Boss: Hmm, I see.
Me: You know, we talk about this process every Monday morning in our dept. meetings. We have explained the process and that you (my boss and theirs!) need the data provided in this report. Right?
Boss: Yes, that's true. When the PWNP don't respond to you, why don't you take some time to walk over to their desks and go over each of their lists with them and gather the data that way?
Me: Well, keep in mind that I am 1 person gathering date from 30-40 people. So let's turn this around and say you or any of the PWNP need some data or a proposal from me. You send me an email and I ignore it. You send another email and I ignore it. You leave a voicemail and I don't respond. Would that be acceptable to you?
Boss: Well, no. (with a look of surprise)
Me: Well why is it acceptable for the PWNP's? You need the data each week and have made that clear. I'm to gather the data and complete the report. But I have to chase them down and ask repeatedly for the information. But if I had to be chased down that would not be acceptable? Please explain.
Boss: Well, I never looked at it that way. We'll talk about it again next week in the meeting.
I'm just speculating here, but I'm guessing that what he wanted to say, but couldn't, was that I am a woman and the PWNP's were all men. Sadly, I think that men are totally unaware of this type of behavior and how frustrating it is to women. I've talked to many women who can point out similar behaviors that men seem to be totally unaware of. How many of us have heard from male co-workers, "Remind me to........" or "If I forget please nag me". Really?
I'm a stickler when it comes to giving/receiving driving directions. I've called a business to get driving directions and have been told, "We're on the corner of Main and Broad". . . okay, fine, which corner? NW, NE, SW, SE? When I ask for specifics most times they don't know. Thankfully I can now use Google maps ahead of time to find out.
I used to work in a purchasing department and had to give directions to truck drives; it was imperative I give them precise directions, there was no way I'd get away giving a flimsy response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakealope
I wasn't sure where to post this, so I guess the Psychology forum is the right place. Over the years I have noticed that most (not all) people are vague communicators. It drives me crazy, because I feel like words are very important and people should use the correct words and add details so that others understand them. If I didn't run across this on a daily basis I probably wouldn't notice and would chalk it up as an isolated incident. But I constantly find myself scratching my head and thinking why can't people give a couple of details and not make others have to ask questions and pull information out of them.
I was talking to a realtor about selling my house. She said "The house I sold near you on Oak Street sold in 2 months". I paused thinking, what house on Oak Street? There haven't been any houses near me for sale on Oak? I couldn't think of it and so I asked her which house. She said, "You know, the house on Elm Street". So I said "Oh, I know that house. It's on Elm, not Oak". She looked at me kind of funny and said "Well, yeah it's off of Oak." Well, why not say the house off of Oak on Elm?
My husband never uses last names when talking about people. He says "I was talking to Lynn and she said..........". I find myself immediately thinking that I know 2 Lynn's who I talk to frequently and he plays golf with a Lynn and works with another Lynn, so I stop him and ask "Which Lynn?" He then acts annoyed. He also starts conversations with no intro and gets frustrated when I ask what the heck he is talking about. Out of the blue he'll say "They gave me a price and it was really expensive". So then I have to ask, "Who gave you a price on what"? And then he'll tell me who and what and I'll note that we hadn't discussed this in 2 days so how would I know what he is thinking that led into that topic. So I ask him if he thinks I can read his mind and he says no. He does this all the time. We have some friends that we socialize with regularly and they jokingly ask me to translate what he is talking about because he jumps topics with no into.
I run several recreational sports leagues and communicate with hundreds of team captains through email. I always remind team captains to please identify their team name, league and flight when they contact me so that I can better help them. Yet they constantly send me one line emails such as "Our Sunday game was rained out." Nothing in the subject line, no league name, no team name, no date, nothing identifying anything at all.
I used to get meeting invitations at my former employer with no meeting room given. This didn't happen occasionally. It happened weekly and it was often the same people who did this over and over.
A friend asked me to carpool to a meeting recently and we decided to meet in a mall parking lot that was easy for us to get to. So I told her we should meet on the side facing Main Street in front of the Kroger at the end of the parking lot. I noted that we could park in the shade since there were trees in that part of the lot. She laughed and said "I never would have thought of any of that. I'd have just said lets meet in the parking lot and we would have driven around for twenty minutes texting each other so we could find each other and we'd have been late to our meeting". I just laughed but thought that was so true.
I don't get it. Why is it so hard for most people to be specific so that others are not having to figure out what they mean? It's so much easier to give details and avoid back and forth questions. I know a few other people who notice the same thing, and we often talk about being in a minority. We just can't figure it out.
I wasn't sure where to post this, so I guess the Psychology forum is the right place. Over the years I have noticed that most (not all) people are vague communicators. It drives me crazy, because I feel like words are very important and people should use the correct words and add details so that others understand them. If I didn't run across this on a daily basis I probably wouldn't notice and would chalk it up as an isolated incident. But I constantly find myself scratching my head and thinking why can't people give a couple of details and not make others have to ask questions and pull information out of them.
I was talking to a realtor about selling my house. She said "The house I sold near you on Oak Street sold in 2 months". I paused thinking, what house on Oak Street? There haven't been any houses near me for sale on Oak? I couldn't think of it and so I asked her which house. She said, "You know, the house on Elm Street". So I said "Oh, I know that house. It's on Elm, not Oak". She looked at me kind of funny and said "Well, yeah it's off of Oak." Well, why not say the house off of Oak on Elm?
My husband never uses last names when talking about people. He says "I was talking to Lynn and she said..........". I find myself immediately thinking that I know 2 Lynn's who I talk to frequently and he plays golf with a Lynn and works with another Lynn, so I stop him and ask "Which Lynn?" He then acts annoyed. He also starts conversations with no intro and gets frustrated when I ask what the heck he is talking about. Out of the blue he'll say "They gave me a price and it was really expensive". So then I have to ask, "Who gave you a price on what"? And then he'll tell me who and what and I'll note that we hadn't discussed this in 2 days so how would I know what he is thinking that led into that topic. So I ask him if he thinks I can read his mind and he says no. He does this all the time. We have some friends that we socialize with regularly and they jokingly ask me to translate what he is talking about because he jumps topics with no into.
I run several recreational sports leagues and communicate with hundreds of team captains through email. I always remind team captains to please identify their team name, league and flight when they contact me so that I can better help them. Yet they constantly send me one line emails such as "Our Sunday game was rained out." Nothing in the subject line, no league name, no team name, no date, nothing identifying anything at all.
I used to get meeting invitations at my former employer with no meeting room given. This didn't happen occasionally. It happened weekly and it was often the same people who did this over and over.
A friend asked me to carpool to a meeting recently and we decided to meet in a mall parking lot that was easy for us to get to. So I told her we should meet on the side facing Main Street in front of the Kroger at the end of the parking lot. I noted that we could park in the shade since there were trees in that part of the lot. She laughed and said "I never would have thought of any of that. I'd have just said lets meet in the parking lot and we would have driven around for twenty minutes texting each other so we could find each other and we'd have been late to our meeting". I just laughed but thought that was so true.
I don't get it. Why is it so hard for most people to be specific so that others are not having to figure out what they mean? It's so much easier to give details and avoid back and forth questions. I know a few other people who notice the same thing, and we often talk about being in a minority. We just can't figure it out.
A few reasons, and I think texting is part of it. Many people don't communicate clearly anymore. I totally get what you're saying.
You mentioned knowing two Lynns, how about when someone is telling you about something that happened involving a few people and doesn't even use their names? A few times I have had to stop them and say "who is he?" or "who is the she that said that, say their names". It's as if they don't get that YOU weren't there like they were, so unless a proper first name is mentioned "he" and "she" don't do any good unless there were only two people involved and one is male and one is female.
I also notice now in emails if someone asks you a question and you respond, you don't get an acknowledgement that they received it, no "thanks" or "OK", nothing. I now sometimes say "please acknowledge that you received this message".
Some people just don't like to divulge a lot, and others are pretty much an open book. There are times for discretion for sure.
I can think of at least a couple people around C-D who like to attack other's info but NEVER divulge anything about themselves. uummmm
The OP isn't talking about not divluging too much on private matters. They are talking about people who don't communicate clearly that cause confusion over minor things.
1) "She says she will be joining us at the restaruant"(when the other person doesn't know how "she" is)
2) "Joan Smith will be joining us at 12pm for lunch at the restaruant".
Status:
"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
(set 2 days ago)
35,604 posts, read 17,935,039 times
Reputation: 50633
Quote:
Originally Posted by katie45
Excellent posting! Couldn't agree more!
I'm a stickler when it comes to giving/receiving driving directions. I've called a business to get driving directions and have been told, "We're on the corner of Main and Broad". . . okay, fine, which corner? NW, NE, SW, SE? When I ask for specifics most times they don't know. Thankfully I can now use Google maps ahead of time to find out.
I used to work in a purchasing department and had to give directions to truck drives; it was imperative I give them precise directions, there was no way I'd get away giving a flimsy response.
Funny - I can't stand it when people give me directions to somewhere. Give me an address, and an approximate location. (It's in the far southwest corner of Jonesville. 123 Smith Street.) And THEN, if there's something tricky about it, like if the building is actually behind a gas station and you can't see it from the street, I'd like to hear it. I can't stand it when someone starts with "well, do you know where the old burned down storage unit is?" No, I don't know where that is. Please give me an address of your business.
I can't stand it when someone tells you to get on Huckleberry street, there's a row of mailboxes there, follow it a little ways, it will kind of take a little bit of a curve, keep going on it, it kind of widens there, keep going on it and then there is a big house on the left with a berm (whatever that may be) keep going and then you'll get to my house. It's red brick. ???? How about, just 234 Huckleberry Street. I can work with that. I can't tell you how many otherwise functioning people will give me directions to their house, and not give the address, just a description of what the house looks like and what the road surface looks like and whether the road is dead straight or curves around a little bit as you drive on it.
Whew. I feel so much better now. ;D
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Toxic Shame
". 
