Why Masculinity is in Turmoil (attractive, mistakes, mentally, men)

[Sir Quotes A Lot]

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

Sorry, I'm not trying to be critical of anyone else's choices with this, and I do see where it comes off that way. I'm saying in context of my own life at the time, I was an adult in my mid-20's with two kids and a full time job. I barely had time to do college at all and I did not want to spend a moment of it, studying things that were not directly tied into the career path I was on. Yes, all kinds of history and sociology and psychology and various things are great for being a well rounded, educated human and all that. Art classes would be great for me, too, as I'm an artist. Music theory would be useless to me but not to a lot of people. I was trying to be an ACCOUNTANT though. I had no money and no time, and if I was carving out time, and taking on debt, I very much wanted it to count in a highly concentrated fashion.

Was it a "for profit" school...uh, yeah, but it's not like it cost a whole lot more than our State schools do here... It was a respected private business school in the area where I lived at the time. And later in fact when I DID go to a more "State"ish University (online, building on what I'd done before) I also was able to get a very focused career based degree track.

I'm saying that in the classes that I took, no one was on about anti-white-male anything. I was there to learn about accounting, though. I have no idea what you might find in other colleges and majors and courses. But saying that any and all colleges are bastions of liberalism where you get brainwashed... Sorry to burst anyone's Fox News bubble but it ain't so. That wasn't my experience in the slightest.

I appreciate the clarification, and I wasn't trying to target you specifically, although your comments did stick out the most due to how it was worded. That's why I quoted you specifically.

I think it's a wild fabrication that these schools are widespread pushing an agenda down anyone's throats. While I did experience professors whom I disagreed with on a number of levels, nobody was pushing 'white male hate' or 'feminism' courses/agendas down my throat either. And I went to a very traditional 'liberal arts & sciences' university. And obviously there are extremes on either end, but they're not the norm.

[fleetiebelle]

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

I'm saying that in the classes that I took, no one was on about anti-white-male anything. I was there to learn about accounting, though. I have no idea what you might find in other colleges and majors and courses. But saying that any and all colleges are bastions of liberalism where you get brainwashed... Sorry to burst anyone's Fox News bubble but it ain't so. That wasn't my experience in the slightest.

I was a liberal arts major and I work at a university, and I don't see anything like this anti-male brainwashing that conservative media is sure that exists on all college campuses. While a lot of people, like Sonic, want to get in and out with a degree, many others want to learn things and be exposed to new people and new ideas. Asking students to look at topics and people in a new way (like Christopher Columbus or Thomas Jefferson, for example) doesn't diminish from their true accomplishments, and including people and cultures in study that may have been overlooked in a more traditional "great men, great events" curriculum adds to an education.

[JONOV]

Is this about masculinity or suicide?

Suicide seems to track really strongly with isolated areas. Really isolated areas. Poverty doesn't help things, but there are states with very high poverty levels and relatively low suicide rates. Louisiana, Georgia, Ohio, Florida, DC, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, etc...

Plenty of the above areas probably have solidly entrenched ideas about "masculine" behavior too.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by Sydney123

I think you’re the definition of toxic masculinity.
Toxic masculinity is a narrow and repressive description of manhood, designating manhood as defined by violence, sex, status and aggression. It’s the cultural ideal of manliness, where strength is everything while emotions are a weakness; where sex and brutality are yardsticks by which men are measured, while supposedly “feminine” traits—which can range from emotional vulnerability to simply not being hypersexual—are the means by which your status as “man” can be taken away.

I would not call that a "cultural ideal."

And outside of certain recognizably pathological situations--such as in prisons--it's never been the "cultural ideal."

That's some kind of agenda-driven myth.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by steiconi

You don't mention what the suicide rate was for men in the past.

If it's about the same, your whole premise falls through.

What if men are killing themselves less often today? Will you do an about-face and say feminization is good for men?

And what are other elements of commonality besides just being male?

What are the elements of the times themselves, as you're alluding to?

Being a man of that age myself, I will testify that the Great Recession was just as tough on middle-aged working people as it was on Millennials...more so, in fact.

A perception of uselessness has long been known to be a primary precipitator of suicide, and since the early 2000s, a great many middle-aged men have been thrown into uselessness and failure at--to be honest--the only role that is possible for them.

[tamajane]

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

And what are other elements of commonality besides just being male?

What are the elements of the times themselves, as you're alluding to?

Being a man of that age myself, I will testify that the Great Recession was just as tough on middle-aged working people as it was on Millennials...more so, in fact.

A perception of uselessness has long been known to be a primary precipitator of suicide, and since the early 2000s, a great many middle-aged men have been thrown into uselessness and failure at--to be honest--the only role that is possible for them.

I know plenty of poor guys who think they are the bomb. I would have a hard time being with a guy who measured his worth by his employment or net worth.

[homina12]

Originally Posted by steiconi

You don't mention what the suicide rate was for men in the past.

If it's about the same, your whole premise falls through.

What if men are killing themselves less often today? Will you do an about-face and say feminization is good for men?

From the National Institute of Mental Health, the suicide rate for men of all ages in the US went up 20% between 1999 and 2016. It went up 50% for women, but women's rates are still well below men's.

In '99 17.8 men per 100,000 committed suicide. In '16 it was 21.3 per 100,000.

In '99 4.0 women per 100,000, and in '16 it was 6.0.

So 2 additional women per 100,000 committed suicide in '16 compared to '99, while 3.5 more men did.

Those #s are significant for men and women.

For everyone, unmet mental health needs and money stresses were the top two reported causes of suicide. Among older people, health issues were a significant factor.

[CorporateCowboy]

Originally Posted by TabulaRasa

Your argument is that women "push" others to violence against them by being passive-aggressive? The "You keep making me hit you because of the things you do" argument? Interesting.

Abuse (of any kind) is wrong, period - and no one ‘asks’ to be hit, no matter their behavior. But to be fair, the point should be made - being abusive is not gender-specific and certainly is not part of masculinity.

[Phil75230]

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

I would not call that a "cultural ideal."

And outside of certain recognizably pathological situations--such as in prisons--it's never been the "cultural ideal."

That's some kind of agenda-driven myth.

It is a cultural ideal if it's widely promoted and accepted, especially if anybody who deviates from or objects to that ideal is liable to get severe stigma, social penalties, and such - even if not legally enforceable. What Sydney says I have and still see a lot of. Granted, prison's the most extreme example of it, but that doesn't mean it's not a serious problem in its less extreme forms.

If fact, I'll say that any differences in ideas of what "ideal masculinity" is that exist between prisons and "polite middle class society" is more stylistic than substantive. The latter may be outraged at illegal or visibly abusive acts that certain pseudo-manly men undertake (indeed the "fine middle class folks" will quickly recognize overtly violent, aggressive, abusive behaviors as semi-psychopathic). That still doesn't change the fact that "fine middle class people" will dismiss people (especially men) who aren't mentally strong or savvy enough to resist an aggressor, trivialize men who express feelings of helplessness, and such.

So far from being an "agenda-driven myth", it's an actual phenomenon that society's so immersed in that most of us didn't even recognize that attitude as putting an unreasonably heavy burden on men until recently.

[homina12]

Originally Posted by Phil75230

It is a cultural ideal if it's widely promoted and accepted, especially if anybody who deviates from or objects to that ideal is liable to get severe stigma, social penalties, and such - even if not legally enforceable. What Sydney says I have and still see a lot of. Granted, prison's the most extreme example of it, but that doesn't mean it's not a serious problem in its less extreme forms.

If fact, I'll say that any differences in ideas of what "ideal masculinity" is that exist between prisons and "polite middle class society" is more stylistic than substantive. The latter may be outraged at illegal or visibly abusive acts that certain pseudo-manly men undertake (indeed the "fine middle class folks" will quickly recognize overtly violent, aggressive, abusive behaviors as semi-psychopathic). That still doesn't change the fact that "fine middle class people" will dismiss people (especially men) who aren't mentally strong or savvy enough to resist an aggressor, trivialize men who express feelings of helplessness, and such.

So far from being an "agenda-driven myth", it's an actual phenomenon that society's so immersed in that most of us didn't even recognize that attitude as putting an unreasonably heavy burden on men until recently.

I think Sidney gave a good definition of the ideals that feed what gets termed "toxic masculinity". Very good conceptual definition, really. I wish the whole idea had been branded differently, though. In the strict sense those things Sidney describes are examples of masculinity gone wrong, but by associating those two terms, all masculinity gets dosed with the toxicity by association, even when that's not what people intend, and I don't think most people saying or writing "toxic masculinity" intend that. Aside from the few people who have a bias against men and the few people who see bias against men everywhere, the association between the words from the sheer # of times the phrase is uttered. Dutch people are quite tall. If you say the phrase "short Dutch people" over and over, your estimate of Dutch people's height will likely diminish.

Regarding polite middle class society, their stated values don't always match their actions. Seems to me that while the events are rare, the person who kills their spouse and family is often white and middle class, and usually male. And when guys do this it's often over a loss of face due to financial, extramarital, or health related events. In other words, a perceived failure to be a proper man.

Edit: It was Sidney123's definition I liked. I added the name to the body of my comment.