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No, I am well aware of that. Another point is that although I am avoidant (and definitely cop to that fact) I have felt intense feelings of love...or what felt to me like love...early on with partners before. At least one other after my marriage broke up. But here's the thing...he didn't feel it back. So I'm told MY love was not real, it was "only lust" or NRE, infatuation, limerance...basically my feelings were not legitimate, because they were not returned. And how would I know if he returned them, without talking to him about it? He actually DID say he loved me before I said anything about that to him. But he clarified later he was trying to make some sort of a joke or something.
Your feelings are your feelings. They are real, just not reciprocated in this instance.
Remember love avoidant individuals are going to be more inclined to engage in casual sex, fwb, and other low commitment relationships because its away to be sexual without dealing with feelings. If you look at where you tend to swim in the dating pool, its has often been the place with a lot of other love avoidant individuals.
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
What I've tried to separate out, are feelings of love...and logistical action. It is the latter that I think bears waiting to do. You can feel what you feel, whenever you feel it. But it seemed to me, that when I spoke of my feelings to this other man, he felt threatened because he did not also feel love for me, and he assumed the (typical, it seems) thing that if someone says they love you, what they are actually saying is, "OK so here's the list of demands I need from you now, because feelings." Including moving in together, making rules about the other person's sexual, romantic, and social behavior with others, to go all the way up to getting married and combining families and..."I love you so now I require you to be mine forever!" seems to be the default setting. I challenge that. I say that you can feel love, and NOT demand things because of it. In fact I tried to tell him this, even said that I was totally fine with it if he didn't love me back, I just wanted to enjoy how I felt and what we were doing...take it as, say, a compliment. Me saying, "I think you're great!" But no. I don't think that he could. And reversing the situation, I'm not sure if I could, because I expect and assume any man who gets emotionally invested in me, to be likely to start controlling my life, having expectations and possessive feelings and all that.
Another possible explanation for this guys feelings, that he is uncomfortable because he is just love avoidant. Your love attachment style can change either because you end up dating someone with a secure love attachment style or therapy where you learn new ways of processing your romantic feelings. But I think it can be changed the other way as well. I suspect if you go through trauma, you can be so hurt by a bad relationship that you become love avoidant because you need to protect yourself from repeating past bad relationships. I don't know this guys romantic past was, but I am suspecting that there is some reason that he has the love attachment style that he has.
Notice when you made the offer of loving him without reciprocating it he felt threatened and when you imagined the situation reversed you felt threatened. There is a lesson there.
You said you were totally fine with loving this guy and him not loving you back, but why would you seek such an arrangement in the first place? I mean wouldn't you prefer to love someone who loves you back? I know I would.
Lastly look up the false dichotomy you are setting up here. Its either if someone says they love you, what they are actually saying is, "OK so here's the list of demands I need from you now, because feelings" or "I expect and assume any man who gets emotionally invested in me, to be likely to start controlling my life, having expectations and possessive feelings and all that."
You aren't leaving much space for a relationship that is interdependent and collaborative.
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
I can love someone and let them be free. I feel like most just...can't, or don't want to. Probably speaks to my ability to be polyamorous, even if I don't prefer it, I don't see it as outrageous or difficult to wrap my head around.
Compersion is just a weird life skill, but I put it in the same category as hypnosis, you can believe it when you see it and experience it, but if someone describes it to you its seems like bullsh*t, so most people wouldn't bother learn and explore it to understand it.
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
So anyways, I'm not saying avoid feeling love or becoming securely attached. But do we HAVE to jump into joint bank accounts, living together, making babies, and the lot? It's all that LIFE stuff that gets you stuck and trapped, in my opinion. Heartbreak sucks, but it's not the survival threat that you can face if you're financially and logistically entangled. In that sense, telling someone to "just leave" an abusive relationship is like saying that people in impoverished third world countries should "just leave." Yeah, easy for you to say. Some might not have anywhere else to go, really.
Yup they’d rather get with a bad man and try to “change” him than picks good man who has his sxxt together in the first place. That’s why we see losers, deadbeats, jobless and criminal men with women flicking to them, while normal, honest, hardworking guys are spurned.
The problem lies with women and their choice of partners, they need to either wise up and make better choices. Or just stop lying and admit that yes, losers, psychos and jerks are what really attracts them. Women WILL NOT admit to this because they get pleasure out of pretending to be the victim and absolving themselves of responsibility.
Women at large, you want men to stop being “psychopaths”? Stop dating psychopaths and give a normal guy a change. But we all know that’s not happening.
It took me until I was in my early forties to find a decent woman that was more interested in me than $, or wanting a loser to "fix". So many young males seem immature, self centered, and just plain jerks. So many women prefer these men- it is sick! Look at how these sociopaths and murderers have so many women contacting them- wanting to marry them once they are caught and in prison!
A lot of extremely "bad" people can be extremely "good" also. You meet them and they are the most intense, sensitive, listening, advice giving, loving, passionate, fun, deep, giving people you ever met. It is easy to fall for it.
But as GOOD as they are, as BAD they are also.
To make it more clear - alot of men complain that their soon to be ex wife is crazy and the divorce is crazy - but the crazy feature didn't just show up - this person was always crazy but they liked the crazy before it turned on them. They found her crazy in bed and were otherwise entertained by it ... but after x years it wore them out or the crazy turned on them and it results in crazy divorces.
Once you made your experience with such a person and get burned, it is really difficult to fall in love with someone who isn't as extreme. You will miss the deep connection and it is difficult to find that with a healthy person.
This isn't psychopath specific, it is "bad boys" or "crazy women" specific.
I agree with your assessment. Most of these sociopaths and "bad boys" are charismatic. I'm convinced all charismatic people are no good- it's all a front to win you over. Anyone who is always smiling and seems "too good to be true"- I avoid. I had my own experience with a crazy ex wife. I paid for it by losing everything- including my freedom for a few years. I now have a wonderful, selfless Christian wife that I absolutely adore and love. I have learned to set boundries with people- I have very few people in my life, and I'm perfectly fine with that.
I am gettin a wiff of “ Nice guys finish last” in this OP. It opens the doors for the incels and can’t get a daters to pop off about us horrible women. Why else would some guy wake up and decide to post something like this? Most of these types of men are very good at manipulating women and don’t often show their true colors until they’ve set the hook. But it’s our fault, because we like being abused and treated like s*** by some a-hole....said no woman ever.
We own quite a few rentals. Trust me, there are many women who go out of their way to pick the worst guys who are psychologically and physically abusive as they could find. Even the ones that somehow escaped a toxic relationship with a guy end up picking another guy just like the last.
We own quite a few rentals. Trust me, there are many women who go out of their way to pick the worst guys who are psychologically and physically abusive as they could find. Even the ones that somehow escaped a toxic relationship with a guy end up picking another guy just like the last.
Again, women want psychos, losers and players, not real men. And they’ll fight tooth and nail to avoid admitting it too. They have to get some sort of sick pleasure from doing it.
They don’t want a guy who’s got his life together. They want an unemployed, broke loser that they can “fix” or a man with money that they can spend. Women would rather have a bad man to complain about than a good man, because good men are “boring” and “predictable”.
Your feelings are your feelings. They are real, just not reciprocated in this instance.
Remember love avoidant individuals are going to be more inclined to engage in casual sex, fwb, and other low commitment relationships because its away to be sexual without dealing with feelings. If you look at where you tend to swim in the dating pool, its has often been the place with a lot of other love avoidant individuals.
I, and my casual partners, were generally not coming to a new connection with a solid goal of marriage-building-only or casual-only. Mostly we were were saying that we weren't sure what to expect out of each new interaction, but were willing to have a go and see what evolved. Flexible. I presented as willing to engage in low-commitment interactions, mostly because I did not want an expectation of commitment when I didn't feel ready to make it. I needed time to work through my stuff before I was going to feel safe making big life decisions. And I was gun shy (literally and figuratively!) after my ex. I often feel like people take a snapshot of someone where they stand in a moment, and say "This is who they are, forever, no matter their history or what they might become capable of in the future." I was faithfully monogamous for 18 years, but that counts for naught if I spend some months having a few casual partners, in the eyes of some, and I was happy to commit again once I felt sure that I was making the right choice. The distinction I wish people understood, is that someone who is flexible or willing to consider non-traditional options, does not necessarily identify as strictly that, nor are they incapable of doing or enjoying the more traditional thing, if they so choose.
The man I talked about before, he SAID he was looking for love...perhaps he was, and I just wasn't it. Or maybe he just says that to get laid. I don't know, or care.
I don't see casual stuff as being a way to do sex with no feelings, either. I'll come back to that.
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Another possible explanation for this guys feelings, that he is uncomfortable because he is just love avoidant. Your love attachment style can change either because you end up dating someone with a secure love attachment style or therapy where you learn new ways of processing your romantic feelings. But I think it can be changed the other way as well. I suspect if you go through trauma, you can be so hurt by a bad relationship that you become love avoidant because you need to protect yourself from repeating past bad relationships. I don't know this guys romantic past was, but I am suspecting that there is some reason that he has the love attachment style that he has.
As one does when one is hurt, I spent way too much time trying to psychoanalyze this man, which was wrong for me and unfair to him. Sometimes we need to accept how things are, without needing to understand WHY, though he probably did tell me and I just didn't want to accept it. He remains single to this day, despite being pretty popular with the ladies. He says that he enjoys having his own space, and defends that pretty fiercely. He's got his haven, he might invite someone in to visit, but you sure as hell aren't gonna stay. I might have accepted that, but well...it was a confusing time for me, too, and his seemingly mixed messages didn't help.
I just object to calling men "jerks" because they don't commit, or because they are successful in getting sex. I think it's a combination of rejected women feeling hurt and laying blame...and complaining about it to "nice guy" friends...mixed with the unsuccessful men who feel that another guy treated their treasure like trash. In this guy's case, it was his right to live his own life as he wants, being exercised. I forgive myself feeling salty about it at the time, but I don't hold it against him. Someone walking away =/= them throwing you away. I wish more people could understand that after a breakup, rejection, or similar end. And I'm saying that even if it hurts, you should try to respect others making their own choices, which frankly a lack of that is on display with the "nice guys finish last" arguments. It's loud and clear in here..."I do not respect your ability to make your own life choices. They should not be what works for you, I feel entitled to have them be what I want, and to judge them when they aren't." SO not nice. I've been hurt, too. But I still respect that the dude was the best judge of what he needed in his life, if I'm not it, I'm not it.
He did not abuse me, nor was he an addict or a broke loser, nor did he spend money on me. He was charismatic, interesting, and he smelled nice. He said he was looking for love, but with me and others, seems he only wants casual sex. Maybe he just hasn't met the right one, or he's got this avoidant stuff happening, whatever. Doesn't make him a jerk, though. But his success in getting laid, if you listened to this thread, should indict him somehow, because "blah blah what women want."
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Notice when you made the offer of loving him without reciprocating it he felt threatened and when you imagined the situation reversed you felt threatened. There is a lesson there.
You said you were totally fine with loving this guy and him not loving you back, but why would you seek such an arrangement in the first place? I mean wouldn't you prefer to love someone who loves you back? I know I would.
Depends on what kind of "love" we are talking about. What did I mean by it? What did he mean if he said it or heard it? I've got a feeling they were two different things. I think that if he were able to visit the inside of my head and know truly what I meant, he might have felt something similar, or at least not alarmed at me using the L-word at him. Only, I was willing to attach, commit, and let it grow but he wasn't. (Willing, not insisting.) He seemed to find me interesting, we spent hours talking, he still reaches out and we converse a bit now and then. I really enjoyed the sex, and all signs indicate that he did, too. My "love" was an appreciation of him that made me want more sensory and intellectual contact. There was not a need for commitment....and I also felt that if we continued, it might run its course in time. I was OK with feeding it or with letting it smolder out and die, but I didn't like being cut off abruptly, which is how it felt.
Personally, I think that experiencing these things is worth it even if they don't last. I know a lot of people who don't want to have feelings if there's a chance they might end. The fear of ending cuts off the willingness to even begin. I don't agree, and THAT is how my idea of "casual" works...it's not "no feelings allowed." It's "feelings are fine, whether it hurts later or not. I'm OK with the risk."
I wasn't avoiding feeling love or attachment for my casual partners...I was hoping for it. I enjoy that. It just did not often happen. I consider a casual beginning more like a cautious segue into a possible long term attachment. I didn't want to settle for less than a very happy long term relationship. I don't get attached to every person I have sex with, and I don't know if I will or not until it happens. I don't fall in love just because I'm looking for the concept of it. I fall in love with the human being in the unique bond we form, or...not. But I wasn't going to avoid sex out of fear of hurt feelings, or fear that the guy would judge me as just a "casual girl" not fit for commitment. I have zero shame about sex, so I cannot be in a happy relationship with that kind of a guy anyhow, one who believes in a transactional exchange of her sex for his commitment. Nah. I want to have sex if we want, commit if we want, but do either/both for the right reasons.
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Lastly look up the false dichotomy you are setting up here. Its either if someone says they love you, what they are actually saying is, "OK so here's the list of demands I need from you now, because feelings" or "I expect and assume any man who gets emotionally invested in me, to be likely to start controlling my life, having expectations and possessive feelings and all that."
You aren't leaving much space for a relationship that is interdependent and collaborative.
It can be interdependent and collaborative if both people want to do that. (I mean, I've got that now.) But how many times have you seen or experienced when one individual "catches feelings" and wants escalation, and the other person is not really feeling it and they either run from it, or else if they go along, they feel regrets? Having a secure attachment style doesn't mean you'll attach to literally anyone, anytime, just because THEY think it's a great idea, or simply because you had sex.
And that was my whole thing about holding off with commitments and logistical entanglements...I don't want any of that piece, unless we are quite sure that we're able to reciprocate our emotional bond.
But I also see that when one person has big feelings, even if they are really clear about NOT having any intent to impose any of this stuff on another person...and the other person does not have those big feelings, even if they are enjoying spending time with the in-love partner, enjoying the companionship and sex, and it's going well...often the less invested partner will feel kind of freaked out or threatened by that higher level of attachment than what they're feeling. And I can only understand that as a feeling that someone is going to impose obligations on you, that you aren't ready to agree to. But maybe that is just me, because that's a part of my own psychological self, I'm very uncomfortable with a feeling that someone is forming expectations that are higher than what I'm ready to agree to.
And I have heard a ton of people talk about expectations of exclusivity, and they want it without ever explicitly asking for it, talking about it, or getting a partner's agreement to it. Like that's just something one should be able to assume, and if the other person's got a problem with that, then they are immoral or whatever. And I mean, within a few dates there are people ready to wig out if they find out you're seeing anyone else. I've heard a lot of "Well, I only date one person at a time" implying that they feel this is RIGHT and any other choice is WRONG. That, to me, is imposing a control you don't have a right to, unless someone agrees to give it to you.
And I see a lot of young people, especially, leap to planning long term life stuff fairly fast. I kinda understand for those who struggle to make it on their own, given how people's economic reality can be nowadays, but I think that's how we get stuck trying to make something work when it's clearly a bad situation.
Don't you think that to some extent that's borne out of empathy for the other person? No one wants to be led on, or strung along, etc. And if you're the person that doesn't have the stronger feelings and sees someone getting heavily emotionally invested in a person, getting freaked out is a natural conclusion because it means confronting a sticky ending.
Don't you think that to some extent that's borne out of empathy for the other person? No one wants to be led on, or strung along, etc. And if you're the person that doesn't have the stronger feelings and sees someone getting heavily emotionally invested in a person, getting freaked out is a natural conclusion because it means confronting a sticky ending.
Maybe, although it doesn't feel like empathy when they run from it or cut it short...I mean, that hurts, too.
But I guess that's part of what I'm trying to say. Sometimes stuff just doesn't work out and sometimes disconnects in how we communicate, how we think about relationships or how invested we are or whatever, make us feel unpleasantly about it. Human relating can be a messy business at times. But that doesn't automatically mean that anyone involved in a connection that ended one way or another is necessarily a "jerk." I actually think that abusers, deadbeats, those who deserve the term, are relatively rare and not always successful in even getting laid either. (My ex has really struggled to find anyone, and he is a jerk, an addict and an abuser and he cannot hold a job...but he sure thinks he's a good man.)
I don't think that all psychopaths are necessarily charismatic, more to the point, nor that all successful or charismatic people are jerks or psychos or any such thing. It's just that people can look at those who ARE successful or charismatic and scrutinize and evaluate their behavior because people really pay attention to those who succeed, and often question whether and how they deserve it, and form judgments to assert in their own minds that "this successful person is really no better than me!"
Maybe, although it doesn't feel like empathy when they run from it or cut it short...I mean, that hurts, too.
Well, sometimes doing the right thing isn't all that nice.
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
But I guess that's part of what I'm trying to say. Sometimes stuff just doesn't work out and sometimes disconnects in how we communicate, how we think about relationships or how invested we are or whatever, make us feel unpleasantly about it. Human relating can be a messy business at times. But that doesn't automatically mean that anyone involved in a connection that ended one way or another is necessarily a "jerk."
It's easy for women to call an ex a jerk just like its easy for a guy to call his ex "crazy." (those are the two terms I hear thrown around most often wrt the opposite gender.)
Because breakups are no fun and its an easy and normal way of dealing with it.
I know I've said that about more than one ex, but in actuality it was only really true once.
And if you're venting to your girlfriends or fishing with the guys, its nice to vent about it sometimes. But that doesn't make it an accurate wholistic characterization.
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
I actually think that abusers, deadbeats, those who deserve the term, are relatively rare and not always successful in even getting laid either. (My ex has really struggled to find anyone, and he is a jerk, an addict and an abuser and he cannot hold a job...but he sure thinks he's a good man.)
I don't think that all psychopaths are necessarily charismatic,
From what I can see, you tend to be right. ESP with regards to a psychopath. It's obviously an armchair opinion, but I have to say that those men that "seem" like psychopaths often tend to attract women that are narcissistic themselves. Because most people that have heard exactly what they want to hear once or twice before become somewhat healthily jaded and spot someone that's disingenuous a mile a way.
Location: As of 2022….back to SoCal. OC this time!
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Originally Posted by jimmy12345678
Again, women want psychos, losers and players, not real men. And they’ll fight tooth and nail to avoid admitting it too. They have to get some sort of sick pleasure from doing it.
They don’t want a guy who’s got his life together. They want an unemployed, broke loser that they can “fix” or a man with money that they can spend. Women would rather have a bad man to complain about than a good man, because good men are “boring” and “predictable”.
I swear some people live off and thrive on drama.
I so love it when a “man” tells us what we all want.....
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