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Instance #2: I was 16, as was the boy, I wanted sex and he said no. He said no a lot. I did not understand why a straight guy who was willing on prior occasions would be unwilling then. I physically wrestled with him and was absolutely persistent and would not leave him alone. He eventually gave in and sex occurred. We were roughly the same size, though he was a little stronger than I was, still he also did not want to hurt me, had been raised on the "never hit a woman" thing. Also, power differential as his family had kicked him out and I was providing him with a place to stay. It was wrong. More than a "misunderstanding"...except insofar as my entire understanding of consent was skewed and incorrect..
Sounds more like and aggressive seduction to me. He could have stopped you if he wanted to. I doubt he was traumatized for life over it. Bad sex isn't rape. People keep expanding the definition of rape and sexual assault and now anyone can claim to be a victim. I think it's ridiculous.
It was what SHE told the police. Bryant's version was different. He said he stopped when she finally said no. Let's look at the Aziz Ansari story then. Did you hear about that one?
I don't know why women insist on being initialized. At any point the woman could have said she didn't want sex and she could have just left, so he had no idea why she was upset. On a college campus with affirmative consent that would have been rape, but it was just a misunderstanding.
You don't consider what Aziz Ansari did was rape, but do you think that he was in the wrong at all in the situation? Was his behavior completely justified?
Is this sort of "aggressive seduction," as you call it, completely acceptable?
Lets see, ive been r*ped twice and had a near miss once.
The first one I was 16 and was with a group of friends and a guy I was very uninterested in was coming on to me. I kept trying to dissuade him. But in a friendly way as he was part of my group. He managed to separate me from the group as we crossed through the woods, got me on the ground and did his thing. I laid there and cried but I remember it very vividly 18 years later. That was absolutely about power. He wanted it and took it and didnt care how I felt.
The second time was a family member by marriage also when I was 16. He had power over me because he was in a position of parental authority. He r*ped me and assaulted me various times during my 16th year. I was a virgin until my 16th birthday and when I came home after loosing my virginity he said something seems different about you. And the assaults started. They didnt stop until I was placed in foster care because I tried to commit s*icide. It was also absolutely about power and control.
The near miss was when I was 18. I was asleep on a friends fold away sofa and he came in in the middle of the night and removed my clothing while I was asleep. When I woke up he was in the middle of trying to do his thing. I panicked and he panicked. He ran off and pretended it never happened. His was not about power, it was about him thinking if I woke up and realized what was happening it would be too late and I wouldnt stop him. When I freaked out he freaked out.
I think if its truly not about power then the person wouldnt be able to go through with it. The "power" isnt always about violence or about control. Sometimes its about wanting something and thinking you can have it when you cant. Its entitlement but that translates to power. Sometimes it is about control like my family member. Sometimes its about thinking youre entitled to it and taking it like the first one. And sometimes its sheer stupidity. If I hadnt woken up in time there would have been a 3rd r*pe which I would likely have not been able to stop. Not because he wanted power over me but because he thought it was ok
You don't consider what Aziz Ansari did was rape, but do you think that he was in the wrong at all in the situation? Was his behavior completely justified?
Is this sort of "aggressive seduction," as you call it, completely acceptable?
On Aziz I don't think his behavior was unjustified. He assumed the woman came back to his place for a hookup. All the women had to do was say she wasn't there for sex. But she didn't. Men shouldn't be expected to be able to read women's minds.
Aggressive seduction is what it is. I've never had a woman try it with me, but I am a fairly big guy who lifts weights. Might be fun though. If not then it would be bad sex, not rape. I won't go into details but I've had sex where I wanted the action to stop because I was having sensitivity issues, but just because it didn't doesn't make it rape. I don't considered my bad sex rape, and no one else should either. It only disparages the experience of real rape victims.
On Aziz I don't think his behavior was unjustified. He assumed the woman came back to his place for a hookup. All the women had to do was say she wasn't there for sex. But she didn't. Men shouldn't be expected to be able to read women's minds.
Aggressive seduction is what it is. I've never had a woman try it with me, but I am a fairly big guy who lifts weights. Might be fun though. If not then it would be bad sex, not rape. I won't go into details but I've had sex where I wanted the action to stop because I was having sensitivity issues, but just because it didn't doesn't make it rape. I don't considered my bad sex rape, and no one else should either. It only disparages the experience of real rape victims.
Should we assume that if a woman is in a mans house with him, or at her house, that she has consented to sex and that he can begin grabbing her and undressing her once they are inside, and that is just a seduction, at least until she clearly says "No"?
On Aziz I don't think his behavior was unjustified. He assumed the woman came back to his place for a hookup. All the women had to do was say she wasn't there for sex. But she didn't. Men shouldn't be expected to be able to read women's minds.
Aggressive seduction is what it is. I've never had a woman try it with me, but I am a fairly big guy who lifts weights. Might be fun though. If not then it would be bad sex, not rape. I won't go into details but I've had sex where I wanted the action to stop because I was having sensitivity issues, but just because it didn't doesn't make it rape. I don't considered my bad sex rape, and no one else should either. It only disparages the experience of real rape victims.
You don't just take consent once at the start of an action like sex. Sex is about boundaries. Sometimes people should take into account that there are shy people who are afraid to speak up. And with alcohol things become complicated too.
I agree that people shouldn't need to be mind readers, but if asking once or twice if everything is okay is too much of a discomfort for someone, why even have sex with another person. just masturbate.
I think power has nothing to do with rape. Maybe weakness.
Should we assume that if a woman is in a mans house with him, or at her house, that she has consented to sex and that he can begin grabbing her and undressing her once they are inside, and that is just a seduction, at least until she clearly says "No"?
Why is it so hard for women to say no? And there are clear signals a woman can give a man to let him know she doesn't want to be in a sexual relationship. Like telling the guy he's like her brother.
Why is it so hard for women to say no? And there are clear signals a woman can give a man to let him know she doesn't want to be in a sexual relationship. Like telling the guy he's like her brother.
There can be a variety of reasons. Some guys can get violent when they are rejected. It happened to me. He tricked me to go into his apartment with him (I drove separately to our date but he got drunk and asked me to drive him home then asked me to go inside with him while he changed for work so I could drive him to work). He initiated sex and I said, "No, I dont want to have sex." He got violent and assaulted me. He also prevented me from leaving.
So some women learn that the firm, clear "no" can anger a man and cause him to become violent. Whlle a softer no might be less likely to result in the guy getting dangerously aggressive.
Or the guy could be in a power position over her. Maybe her landlord, a business client, a customer, and she has to stay on his good side, so she tries to let him down easily if he makes a move on her.
Maybe shes naturally timid or soft spoken and was taught to never raise her voice to a man, to be submissive to men, then she might have trouble being firm.
So I was asking these questions to find out where we draw the line of what is considered consent in the context of an aggressive seduction. Do we always assume shes good to go if she has allowed herself to be alone with you?
How firm does her "No" have to be? Is saying in a soft, shy voice "I dont feel like it tonight," not a hard enough no? Are you allowed to continue to grab her up and continue with sexual activity, since she hasnt said "No" more firmly?
There can be a variety of reasons. Some guys can get violent when they are rejected. It happened to me. He tricked me to go into his apartment with him (I drove separately to our date but he got drunk and asked me to drive him home then asked me to go inside with him while he changed for work so I could drive him to work). He initiated sex and I said, "No, I dont want to have sex." He got violent and assaulted me. He also prevented me from leaving.
So some women learn that the firm, clear "no" can anger a man and cause him to become violent. Whlle a softer no might be less likely to result in the guy getting dangerously aggressive.
Or the guy could be in a power position over her. Maybe her landlord, a business client, a customer, and she has to stay on his good side, so she tries to let him down easily if he makes a move on her.
Maybe shes naturally timid or soft spoken and was taught to never raise her voice to a man, to be submissive to men, then she might have trouble being firm.
So I was asking these questions to find out where we draw the line of what is considered consent in the context of an aggressive seduction. Do we always assume shes good to go if she has allowed herself to be alone with you?
How firm does her "No" have to be? Is saying in a soft, shy voice "I dont feel like it tonight," not a hard enough no? Are you allowed to continue to grab her up and continue with sexual activity, since she hasnt said "No" more firmly?
This is why in some cultures men aren't allowed to be alone with a women who is not a spouse. Maybe we are going to end up like that. Alcohol confuses lots of issues. I hate drunks and never hang out with them. It's a good policy.
It was what SHE told the police. Bryant's version was different. He said he stopped when she finally said no. Let's look at the Aziz Ansari story then. Did you hear about that one?
I don't know why women insist on being initialized. At any point the woman could have said she didn't want sex and she could have just left, so he had no idea why she was upset. On a college campus with affirmative consent that would have been rape, but it was just a misunderstanding.
It was what medical personnel and police observed. It's in the medical and police reports, in the words of police officers and medical personnel. Are they lying too? There are also pictures taken by both documenting that.
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