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I'm gonna don my Devil's Advocate (TM) suit again... lol.
Does it not take two parties to have a conversation? Sorry, I'm not talking about psychotics whose convos occur between themselves and some Imaginary Other (Pat. Pend.).
Yeah, thought so. So how are these 'sad sacks' supposed to have conversations with women - or other males, since I am sure 'inceldom' is not exclusive to straight males - when they are continually rejected?
How do they 'remedy' this then?
This makes me think of something that I have seen a number of incel-minded men complain about (in person and online.) The dreaded "friend zone." Like when they do connect with a woman, they do not get to date her, and get increasingly angry that she continues to confide in them and spend time with them while going off to be romantic and sexual with other guys.
Now, I got into it with another poster recently over the fact that online, we barely even know who each other are. We ONLY know what any person has put out there about themselves. It may or may not even be true! But if a person online has only ever showed up in a forum for a truly long span of years with the same complaints always and nothing else...that's the definition of themselves that they have given. It's all we've got! I'm sure (I hope) there is more to them. But I wouldn't know it.
But I can tell you that one man I know in real life, who is neither inexperienced nor virginal but who has a lot of bitterness and anger and near-hate towards women, yet a tendency to put any woman he likes on an absurd pedestal, "She's not like other women" style... He very often goes in pessimistic, talking about how badly women have treated him, complaining about his life and his lot...so from the get-go, any given woman feels sorry for him (at best, is just utterly put off at worst) and those who remain in his acquaintance do so mostly out of pity. A desire to give some sort of kindness to this poor soul. She starts of giving him emotional labor, sympathy, and a listening ear, and it's not strange for her to start expecting it in return.
Before ya know it..."friend zone." And he apparently never realizes that few things are less sexy than emotional caretaking and pity, in a new-ish connection. If you start off with sparks and wind up married, sure, you build some friend mojo in there (which allows you to live with one another for years) and THEN emotional caretaking can certainly fit in there just fine, though hopefully such support would be mutual. But in a new connection, it's kind of a wet blanket, I think.
This makes me think of something that I have seen a number of incel-minded men complain about (in person and online.) The dreaded "friend zone." Like when they do connect with a woman, they do not get to date her, and get increasingly angry that she continues to confide in them and spend time with them while going off to be romantic and sexual with other guys.
Now, I got into it with another poster recently over the fact that online, we barely even know who each other are. We ONLY know what any person has put out there about themselves. It may or may not even be true! But if a person online has only ever showed up in a forum for a truly long span of years with the same complaints always and nothing else...that's the definition of themselves that they have given. It's all we've got! I'm sure (I hope) there is more to them. But I wouldn't know it.
But I can tell you that one man I know in real life, who is neither inexperienced nor virginal but who has a lot of bitterness and anger and near-hate towards women, yet a tendency to put any woman he likes on an absurd pedestal, "She's not like other women" style... He very often goes in pessimistic, talking about how badly women have treated him, complaining about his life and his lot...so from the get-go, any given woman feels sorry for him (at best, is just utterly put off at worst) and those who remain in his acquaintance do so mostly out of pity. A desire to give some sort of kindness to this poor soul. She starts of giving him emotional labor, sympathy, and a listening ear, and it's not strange for her to start expecting it in return.
Before ya know it..."friend zone." And he apparently never realizes that few things are less sexy than emotional caretaking and pity, in a new-ish connection. If you start off with sparks and wind up married, sure, you build some friend mojo in there (which allows you to live with one another for years) and THEN emotional caretaking can certainly fit in there just fine, though hopefully such support would be mutual. But in a new connection, it's kind of a wet blanket, I think.
That's just...another theory, though.
So one of The Rules (TM), huh?
Whose fault is that? The guy, who thinks he is being noble? Or the woman, who is playing him and setting him up for heartbreak?
In regards to the latter, sounds sick. Disgusting. If most people engage in the latter behavior, they should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves and, by extension, should refrain from engaging with anyone else on that level again. There is enough pain and misery in the world, no more is needed.
Tell ya what... the more I hear things like this, the more I want to throw in the towel and be an unabashedly selfish bastard and never allow ANYONE 'access'. But, because I innately know that there is no way ever that every single human on this Earth subscribes to such hateful beliefs, I will refuse to do so.
The woman I am getting to know certainly does not. Then again, she is from El Salvador. She, perhaps, may value characteristics that most Norteamericanos would throw in the trash.
Whose fault is that? The guy, who thinks he is being noble? Or the woman, who is playing him and setting him up for heartbreak?
Well, not really a rule. Sounds more like a hypothesis Spork is advancing.
But, lets say she is exactly correct, and has accurately diagnosed her friend's situation. How does that make the woman in the story "play him"? Sounds like the woman is actively trying to be a friend. What is wrong with that? Why can't a woman be a friend while still not being interested in a sexual relationship? How is that deceitful in any way?
Quote:
In regards to the latter, sounds sick. Disgusting. If most people engage in the latter behavior, they should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves and, by extension, should refrain from engaging with anyone else on that level again. There is enough pain and misery in the world, no more is needed.
Tell ya what... the more I hear things like this, the more I want to throw in the towel and be an unabashedly selfish bastard and never allow ANYONE 'access'. But, because I innately know that there is no way ever that every single human on this Earth subscribes to such hateful beliefs, I will refuse to do so.
The woman I am getting to know certainly does not. Then again, she is from El Salvador. She, perhaps, may value characteristics that most Norteamericanos would throw in the trash.
So, if your El Salvadoran interest ever becomes a friend with another man, you think she will then want to have sex with him? Or at least should feel obligated to do so? If your relationship moves forward, are you going to lock her up or declare it to be a polyamorous relationship? I don't see other options based on your thoughts here.
from observation I believe most women do want a committed LTR, whether or not that includes marriage and picket fence.
I think you're right. The only thing is, that committed LTR has to be better than their life alone, and if the guy is not going to make her life better, many women would rather just pass on the opportunity.
I think you're right. The only thing is, that committed LTR has to be better than their life alone, and if the guy is not going to make her life better, many women would rather just pass on the opportunity.
Yes, and I think studies have shown that men tend to be happy to more happy with marriage, while women at either as happy or less happy in marriage.
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I'm starting to think that both the incels themselves and the people trying so hard to articulate their hatred of the incels in a socially acceptable manner are overthinking things to the extreme. This ain't rocket science folks.
Whose fault is that? The guy, who thinks he is being noble? Or the woman, who is playing him and setting him up for heartbreak?
How is the guy in Sonic's example acting noble by dumping all of his baggage about women on a relative stranger? And how is she playing him by not finding that behavior particularly attractive romantically?
How is the guy in Sonic's example acting noble by dumping all of his baggage about women on a relative stranger? And how is she playing him by not finding that behavior particularly attractive romantically?
It seems more like the guy is playing on womens sense of sympathy and caring.
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