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It seems more like the guy is playing on womens sense of sympathy and caring.
It's more just a situation where most outside observers would note an absence of accurate perception, and unfortunate choices made in a state of desperation I guess.
In at least 2 situations I can think of specifically, one online, one in real life... The woman in question wasn't a catch, she was a very messy person. This lonely dude though, because she gave him a bit of kindness and her presence and friendship, got kinda connected to the notion that she's the only chance he'll ever have. That maybe if he waited long enough, she'd see it. He would be her hanger on for years, through drug addictions and bad relationships, continuously asking why she would rather this destructive lifestyle than a better one with him. After all, he would treat her like royalty, if only he had the chance!
OK well to see this that much more clearly, how about we flip flop the genders in our minds. Now the case study is a shy, socially awkward, and unattractive looking woman, and there is a man who will at least talk to her. He goes through drugs and bad relationships, maybe borrows her money or crashes on her couch. She keeps dreaming that one day her kindness will transform him into the good man she believes he can be, and he will love her the way she wishes that he would...
Every sane person on the planet would tell her how hopeless an endeavor this is. That dude is a mess, and he is a user, and she needs to boot him out of her life, even if he's the only guy who has sat with her for a conversation even, in years. She is wanting him to be somebody he is not, and he's not likely to change for her or anybody.
OK back to the incel man with the woman who has him "friend zoned"...it is the same thing. The women are messy people, they are not going to become better people for his sake. They will not suddenly have an epiphany that he is everything they ever needed/wanted.
God I just realized, why did I even write all this? All I had to say was, she's Jenny from Forrest Gump, OK? Only Forrest, rather than being the character played by Tom Hanks, is a shy, lonely dude with no idea how to hold a contextually appropriate conversation with a new acquaintance of interest. Rather than "life is like a box of chocolates" to the lady at the bus stop, he starts telling them how terrible women are and mansplaining evolution and dating studies or something, or explaining how unfair it was the last six times this year that he got fired from minimum wage jobs.
This is not an indictment of women or men, or a statement of rules. This is a matter of messy people being messy to one another in a particular way. The men and the women in these stories are outliers. They aren't common creatures. Maybe that's part of the issue as well, those whose interpersonal experience tends towards messy humans will in fact note that if you are messy but good looking, you can still get laid. But if one took the time to look a little closer...see the drama that goes on there...I'm not sure it's worth it. Like, "We had sex, then they stole my car and went on a heroin bender" is...not ideal. Lurking around waiting for someone like that to transform into an angel and love you... It's a special kind of blind, that's all I can say. Forrest/Jenny blind.
God I just realized, why did I even write all this? All I had to say was, she's Jenny from Forrest Gump, OK?
While I like the Jenny/Gump analogy, that is also only a fraction of "friend zone" scenarios. I think your previous post where you described a man dumping emotions on a woman with whom he is not romantically involved is a very good one. Or people who have been friends for so long that the thought of sex would be a bit awkward.
Going with your movie analogy, there is also the "When Harry Met Sally" theme. Although the characters in that movie ultimately did enter a relationship, an alternate ending where they did not is really common in the real world, and is probably at least a portion of what incels complain about.
Advice to incels. If you get to know a woman, and hover around her for months or years as she enters into a few different relationships while never getting involved with you, take the hint. She isn't into you sexually. It could be a number of different reasons, some toxic, some not. Doesn't matter. You need to accept you are not getting into her bed, and you should pursue some other woman. At best, talk to your friend to find out if there is something in your approach that makes you seem creepy and work on that.
Get over the friend zone thing. Sure, it happens. It isn't a conspiracy against you.
Another thing that I consider societal/systemic... A lot of guys who struggle to find partners don't have much money. They then assume that women are gold diggers for wanting a financially stable man, that we just want to jet set and buy shoes or something..
Most incels think in black and white. "I can't get a date because I'm broke." No, you have a number of problems but you think in black and white and are full of anger/resentment/etc and it puts people off.
Most people that have the forethought and self awareness to realize that they aren't in a great situation, have the ability to change that situation one way or another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
Interesting thought. Highly speculative though.
Back in the 1980s when I was in high school/college, money wasn't a huge factor in my early relationships with women. Sure, some amount of money was helpful, but borrowing a car and having enough cash for a movie and ice cream, maybe a couple of drinks at a bar, was the cost of entry.
I think part of that, is incels assume that the inverse of a positive trait, will end up being a barrier. "Mike has money, mike has a good looking girlfriend, I don't have a girlfriend, it's because I don't have money."
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
Women are more than just breeders reacting to economic stability. They are actually human beings that make their own choices based on a number of complex reasons.
Some level of financial stability ends up being a requisite for most people. Stability doesn't equal "rich." It means stable. They don't want someone that's ducking a landlords calls, can't afford a decent place, can't do something because the car might not make it, etc...That goes both ways. Well adjusted, functional people want to be with other well adjusted functional people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
This makes me think of something that I have seen a number of incel-minded men complain about (in person and online.) The dreaded "friend zone." Like when they do connect with a woman, they do not get to date her, and get increasingly angry that she continues to confide in them and spend time with them while going off to be romantic and sexual with other guys.
The older I get the more I think that the friend-zone thing is just a function of not knowing or having good boundaries. When I figured it out I didn't have the vocabulary or awareness to articulate it, but that's what it was. You realize that at some point that you don't get taken advantage of without your permission, and you learn to protect yourself.
Most incels think in black and white. "I can't get a date because I'm broke." No, you have a number of problems but you think in black and white and are full of anger/resentment/etc and it puts people off.
Most people that have the forethought and self awareness to realize that they aren't in a great situation, have the ability to change that situation one way or another.
I think part of that, is incels assume that the inverse of a positive trait, will end up being a barrier. "Mike has money, mike has a good looking girlfriend, I don't have a girlfriend, it's because I don't have money."
Some level of financial stability ends up being a requisite for most people. Stability doesn't equal "rich." It means stable. They don't want someone that's ducking a landlords calls, can't afford a decent place, can't do something because the car might not make it, etc...That goes both ways. Well adjusted, functional people want to be with other well adjusted functional people.
The older I get the more I think that the friend-zone thing is just a function of not knowing or having good boundaries. When I figured it out I didn't have the vocabulary or awareness to articulate it, but that's what it was. You realize that at some point that you don't get taken advantage of without your permission, and you learn to protect yourself.
If the women doesn’t know you like her then I don’t see it as her taken advantage of the guy I see it as her thinking she’s confiding in a close friend so that’s the guys fault not hers.
Its also a problem on multiple levels.
Not just what you listed about not setting boundaries for yourself but also on the other end the fact that if you’re confiding with another man friend or not a lot about personal stuff while you also have a boyfriend that’s disrespectful
You should be talking to your boyfriend about those issues not a male friend
If the women doesn’t know you like her then I don’t see it as her taken advantage of the guy I see it as her thinking she’s confiding in a close friend so that’s the guys fault not hers.
Its also a problem on multiple levels.
Not just what you listed about not setting boundaries for yourself but also on the other end the fact that if you’re confiding with another man friend or not a lot about personal stuff while you also have a boyfriend that’s disrespectful
You should be talking to your boyfriend about those issues not a male friend
It depends how serious and developed the relationship is. Someone you've been seeing for 3 weeks vs 3 months vs a year, makes a difference. That level of contact often fades as people get more involved in their relationship.
First it was weirdo then creep and now incel. Maybe we need to stop with the name calling as it doesn't help at all.
It is brutal to be a socially awkward male as he can be branded as weird, creep and now incel. Why not help these dudes? (if it so easy to be "normal"?) It is easy to kick someone when they are down or an outcast.
First it was weirdo then creep and now incel. Maybe we need to stop with the name calling as it doesn't help at all.
It is brutal to be a socially awkward male as he can be branded as weird, creep and now incel. Why not help these dudes? (if it so easy to be "normal"?) It is easy to kick someone when they are down or an outcast.
Seriously, all these pixels spilled attacking incels. Why all the hate for people you'll probably never encounter?
First it was weirdo then creep and now incel. Maybe we need to stop with the name calling as it doesn't help at all.
It is brutal to be a socially awkward male as he can be branded as weird, creep and now incel. Why not help these dudes? (if it so easy to be "normal"?) It is easy to kick someone when they are down or an outcast.
What is your suggestion? What help should be offered?
First it was weirdo then creep and now incel. Maybe we need to stop with the name calling as it doesn't help at all.
It is brutal to be a socially awkward male as he can be branded as weird, creep and now incel. Why not help these dudes? (if it so easy to be "normal"?) It is easy to kick someone when they are down or an outcast.
This thread hasn't really been about calling people names. Though some suggesting solutions have been harsh, that's pretty understandable given the topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
What is your suggestion? What help should be offered?
I'm curious too. Any ideas Mr. Ryu as to what might help?
First it was weirdo then creep and now incel. Maybe we need to stop with the name calling as it doesn't help at all.
It is brutal to be a socially awkward male as he can be branded as weird, creep and now incel. Why not help these dudes? (if it so easy to be "normal"?) It is easy to kick someone when they are down or an outcast.
What am I supposed to do to “help” these dudes? I was nice to a guy at work and he started sending me ultra scary/creepy text messages. The two coworkers I showed them to before I contacted my supervisor were very concerned after they read them. LUCKILY my supervisor was very supportive and dealt with the problem, but I have no duty to help this man.
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