Would demystifying sex lead to less men developing an incel-like mentality? (weight, narcissistic)
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NPC= Non Player Character. It originated in role playing games like Dungeons and Dragons, but the concept holds true for video games and movies.
Essentially, they are the background characters that exist to advance the plot. Things like the bartender, doorman, ambulance driver, shopkeeper, young kid that gets run over by a horse/train/car, the love interest early in the movie that dies tragically and gives the lead character a reason for mourning.
Incels seem to view women in this way. Women exist in the world as gatekeepers to sex. They are a challenge to be met, and if you win the challenge, you get laid as a reward. The woman reacts positively to certain verbal statements (game), negatively to others, and makes judgements based upon your charisma (a typical character statistic in many games). If you say the right things in the right order and are attractive enough, the woman automatically puts out.
The NPC/woman doesn't have a full personality, history, goals or interests of her own. She is just a stock character.
Geeky is pretty self-evident, and over time has moved from a term of condemnation to a term often used by people to self-identify with certain types of pop culture.
Grok is a reference from a Robert Heinlein novel. Maybe Stranger in a Strange Land? It is a synonym for "understand", with connotations of both intellectual and emotional understanding.
You might say that my statement is a mild form of internet flirting with Sonic Spork. She has mentioned NPCs previously, as well as a few things like playing Magic (a fantasy card game). I was just throwing back a vaguely related sci-fi term for the amusement factor. It seemed like a fun thing to include in this thread given the subject matter.
Of course, explaining in detail kills it a bit, just like explaining the punch line to a joke.
But it will help me for next time. Geeky I know, of course, but NPC and Grok were new to me. Thanks! I have a Millennial daughter (30), so I might get the chance to sound casually cool.
NPC makes sense, and I totally get the concept from TV and movies. I was watching an old Law & Order rerun, and there was what would be an NPC at the beginning of the show--a prostitute who was the murder victim. As her body is being loaded into the morgue truck, one cop says, "Do we have an identity?" and the other cop answers with my first and last name.
I've known people who play D&D--there's one in the house where I'm staying right now--but I never have. My brother plays another role-playing game, but I forget what it's called.
Chad is an idea. He lives in incel's heads as a sort of symbolic self critical message that says they'll never be......good looking enough or chill enough or tall enough, or just enough. Never. Enough.
How profound, and cuts right to the heart of the matter.
Believing in this ideal means you don't define yourself for who you are, but rather who you are in comparison to someone else. It's safer to retreat from life and complain about how unfair it is than do the work and make the changes to improve your life. Lazy and scared are no way to live life, but that's what they're choosing while thinking they don't have a choice at all.
How profound, and cuts right to the heart of the matter.
Believing in this ideal means you don't define yourself for who you are, but rather who you are in comparison to someone else. It's safer to retreat from life and complain about how unfair it is than do the work and make the changes to improve your life. Lazy and scared are no way to live life, but that's what they're choosing while thinking they don't have a choice at all.
I first read "comparison is the thief of joy" on City-Data. It's true.
I just listened to that video. I would like to say I have no experience with that sort of approach, but it was a little less twisted/crazy than the experience I had with my coworker who actually told me I was part of some “kindness experiment” or something. There was no doubt in my mind that he saw me as an object because he told me he did! Who performs experiments on humans without their consent?
On another note- GWAR. Haha. I have a friend who used to have a Megadeth tattoo. I am not sure if she still has it or has since gotten it modified/removed. I have a wee obsession with baroque music, so I go older than you. I’m still waiting for a good movie about Vivaldi and the convent. Of course, I like some music that is a bit more modern.
Even before the internet, there were ways to meet people more organically. I know of clubs that are now on Meetup or have websites, but they’ve been around since before that time. Book clubs, bible studies, adult rec leagues, hiking groups- all of these existed before Meetup/FB groups.
Yep. I got into GWAR first through an old fan forum and the singer's "Guest Book" from his old website, then Myspace...eventually it migrated to Facebook. I was part of a community where I'd say I was at least pretty well acquainted with close to a thousand people and closer friends with something like 60-80 of them, including the members of the band. I knew them for years online and then started meeting them in person. I was able to say, "I'm driving to the Tulsa show from Colorado tomorrow, who will be there?" and find a group of about 5 or 6 people to meet up with on arrival. And then possibly impress the heck out of them by taking them all around back of the venue where I'd holler out to one of the band members and get us taken backstage. It was fun times. But the guy I was closest to in the band died, and all hell broke loose in the form of wacky drama among the fans, and it just got stoopid. And other things have changed. And Covid happened, which reshuffled my priorities. Point being, if I'd been single I could have sourced that social group, or ANY social group anchored by an interest, for dates. Would have been easy. Later I got more into kink communities and Leather/BSDM clubs and between my 2 marriages I did date there. That was great fun, too. I still have ties to that group, but I'm on a bit of a social hiatus I think.
In dealing with some old family stuff from storage units, found a collection of art glass toothpick holders and cards and newsletters from a group that began in the 70s. The "National Toothpick Holders Collectors Society." And I looked them up on Facebook and they still remember Grandma who has been dead for decades. They have conventions. I'm sure that many lifelong friendships have started there, and there are a surprising number of men in the group.
I swear if people will connect socially over TOOTHPICK HOLDERS it can be gotdamn anything. And every social group is an opportunity to meet people. And some % of those people, might be people that one could perhaps end up dating.
Part of the problem with the incel mentality is that they are so obsessed with it being this forced and stilted "game" thing, that you cannot tell them that some other men (I'm sure they see them as "loud obnoxious Chads who slither") are just regular dudes who are not paralyzed by the thought of interacting with other human beings, who see women they might end up in bed with as just people to talk to at the outset, and who are not playing any kind of elaborate game. They're just living their lives, interacting with whoever, and whatever happens maybe happens. Because they are nowhere near as obsessed with it, don't overthink it, like the incel does. But the way that humans project means that he's likely to disbelieve, that anyone does not operate on these fundamental patterns of thinking that he does. He thinks that everyone overthinks their every gesture or word and is calculating it all to win some game. Most people are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict
Cuddle, you are making assumptions. People who are shy and awkward are typically like that with everyone, not just people they like. Most people aren’t so narcissistic as to think it is due to romantic interest on the shy person’s part. I have a few shy male coworkers. They also happen to be happily married.
The problem with incels is that they seem to take people being friendly as some sort of sign the person likes them romantically. Then they become angry when the woman does not act the way he wants her to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euskalherria
Isn't being 'friendly' the precursor to liking someone 'romantically'? I mean... my partner was 'friendly' towards me before things developed in a romantic way.
We certainly would not be where we are now if she was 'unfriendly' towards me lol.
So elaborate on this if you don't mind.
Euskalherria, it's the bold part that matters. Friendliness CAN be a precursor to romance. The problem is when the incel is so obsessed with everything being part of a "game" that if a reasonably attractive woman is friendly to him, he then behaves as though she has OBLIGATED HERSELF to be with him. At that point, his desire for her becomes a Belief that it should happen. If she is in a relationship, he's just got to hover and wait. If she tries to resist, he's just got to keep trying, she's being delusional of course but she will see in time...
It is all the things that feel in the flavor of a fan stalking a celebrity. The fan thinks that they are in a relationship but that only exists in their head. The celebrity never consented to it. And some of this particular variety of incel will also put the woman on a weird pedestal of fantasy, and believe he truly knows her, the way that a wacky fan will think he knows a celebrity based on a character that they play. That's an extreme, but in some degree, I've seen it happen.
But this is just...a subtype, if you will. Many incels are not this way. I can only think of one of the ones from this forum board who has a history of doing this with a female friend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
NPC= Non Player Character. It originated in role playing games like Dungeons and Dragons, but the concept holds true for video games and movies.
Essentially, they are the background characters that exist to advance the plot. Things like the bartender, doorman, ambulance driver, shopkeeper, young kid that gets run over by a horse/train/car, the love interest early in the movie that dies tragically and gives the lead character a reason for mourning.
Incels seem to view women in this way. Women exist in the world as gatekeepers to sex. They are a challenge to be met, and if you win the challenge, you get laid as a reward. The woman reacts positively to certain verbal statements (game), negatively to others, and makes judgements based upon your charisma (a typical character statistic in many games). If you say the right things in the right order and are attractive enough, the woman automatically puts out.
The NPC/woman doesn't have a full personality, history, goals or interests of her own. She is just a stock character.
Geeky is pretty self-evident, and over time has moved from a term of condemnation to a term often used by people to self-identify with certain types of pop culture.
Grok is a reference from a Robert Heinlein novel. Maybe Stranger in a Strange Land? It is a synonym for "understand", with connotations of both intellectual and emotional understanding.
You might say that my statement is a mild form of internet flirting with Sonic Spork. She has mentioned NPCs previously, as well as a few things like playing Magic (a fantasy card game). I was just throwing back a vaguely related sci-fi term for the amusement factor. It seemed like a fun thing to include in this thread given the subject matter.
Of course, explaining in detail kills it a bit, just like explaining the punch line to a joke.
Yeah, I saw what you did there. The references made me smile. Do you know, my polyamorous friends are huge Heinlein fans. That's like...a whole thing.
I was actually going to explain the NPC thing but you returned to the conversation sooner than I did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by homina12
The men incels call Chad are real, no doubt. I'm not sure being loud and obnoxious are features but those traits are often tolerated bugs. And some of us mistake assertiveness and a healthy level of self regard as loud and obnoxious.
I'm not sure that Mightyqueen was denying the existence of very attractive men who some women kind of lose their **** around. Men whose social lives are dramatically different from most men's. Those men exist, just like very attractive women who enjoy that kind of social privilege exist.
I think it's your fixation on this and the implication at least that a man can be Chad, or sort of recede into non existence. As I said above, there are real men incels point to and label Chad, but those real men aren't Chad. Chad is an idea. He lives in incel's heads as a sort of symbolic self critical message that says they'll never be......good looking enough or chill enough or tall enough, or just enough. Never. Enough.
Yeah, but there is more to it when an incel is referring to the Chad concept. He is not just talking about the legit Fonzie type guys, the real lady killers out there.
I guess maybe part of the reason why I don't necessarily go for the same men that I know a lot of women do, is that I made the mistake of a naive young woman of getting together with the "alpha" guy of my social group at the time. Now mind you it was a live action role playing group at a college where we pretended to be vampires and werewolves in the late 90s but still. He was not a gorgeous looking man, but yes he was "confident" and belligerent and loud. Guess what though? Fast forward a couple decades, he's actually an incel himself. But the thing is... Men fool other men. And young, unwise women. But at this point? They don't fool me. The bigger the posture and front from a man who passes for some kind of "Alpha" the more insecure they are inside. I can see pretentious behavior for what it is.
And now he's too old and twisted to fool young, foolish or vulnerable women. And all he has left is the toxic sludge of bitterness. No man would envy him now, though they might have back in 1997. He sure SEEMED confident, though inside he was not. And the loudest, most over the top self aggrandizing men usually aren't. They often wind up very painfully divorced, too.
But men don't want their cartoon hero illusions to be broken. They don't want to know the truth about other men. They don't want to know that the guys they look up to as some sort of example (while also hating them for their relative "success," sometimes) are in fact very flawed and very human. They don't want the whole story, only the part that confirms a bias. I think that there is some sort of comfort in accepting one's place in a social hierarchy even if it's a low and unhappy place, by rationalizing that those higher up deserve it because they are inherently different somehow. That transforms the situation from, "I am not more successful, because I have failed to do what I could do," to "I am not more successful because I never could be, it's unfair but it's life."
I first read "comparison is the thief of joy" on City-Data. It's true.
It really is. Another one I like is "life begins at the end of your comfort zone".
People brush off these phrases as if they don't mean anything, and don't take time to reflect on the actual meaning behind them.
I'll never be a supermodel, I'll never be as wealthy as Bill Gates. Based on the incel mindset, I shouldn't even try to have a good life, but rather sit around and bemoan my fate with other like-minded individuals. Thank goodness I choose not to.
It really is. Another one I like is "life begins at the end of your comfort zone".
People brush off these phrases as if they don't mean anything, and don't take time to reflect on the actual meaning behind them.
I'll never be a supermodel, I'll never be as wealthy as Bill Gates. Based on the incel mindset, I shouldn't even try to have a good life, but rather sit around and bemoan my fate with other like-minded individuals. Thank goodness I choose not to.
Yep, and the OP needs to keep in mind that Chads have their own issues. I have one friend who I think the OP would categorize as a Chad back when he was in his 20s. He was a very close friend, but absolutely horrible to date. Just terrible. I still keep in touch with him and another mutual friend and the other mutual friend and I still talk about how horribly this guy treated women he dated. He is the type of guy who can speak like a sentence and that will make you swoon. He’s brilliant and has a gift with language. He was also an alcoholic, a recovering drug addict, and likely had a lot of untreated mental issues. None of his relationships during that period worked out. He got married in his 30s and now has 3 kids. I’m still amazed anyone would have him, but I guess it’s working out for them.
My guess that most women who had the misfortune of actually dating him during their 20s would not want to be with him long-term. He told me one of his friends stopped speaking to him for some unknown reason but some of his Chad-oriented stories he told gave her plenty of reasons to decide not to talk to him anymore.
His life goes far beyond the average human’s comfort zone… it’s fine to expand it a bit, but it’s also good to realize that your comfort zone just isn’t THAT big.
How profound, and cuts right to the heart of the matter.
Believing in this ideal means you don't define yourself for who you are, but rather who you are in comparison to someone else. It's safer to retreat from life and complain about how unfair it is than do the work and make the changes to improve your life. Lazy and scared are no way to live life, but that's what they're choosing while thinking they don't have a choice at all.
I agree with what I put in bold, so my comment is what you said and, as opposed to what you said but.
Sometimes the only change a person needs to make is to accept that even though there are appealing aspects to Chad's life, or Stacy's, there's almost certainly a path for them that leads to what they need. A path that's pleasant to walk on if they don't crane their necks looking at the next path to see if it's smoother or seems to have better scenery.
First it was weirdo then creep and now incel. Maybe we need to stop with the name calling as it doesn't help at all.
It is brutal to be a socially awkward male as he can be branded as weird, creep and now incel. Why not help these dudes? (if it so easy to be "normal"?) It is easy to kick someone when they are down or an outcast.
I’m pretty sure incels is a name they gave themselves online.
Yep. I got into GWAR first through an old fan forum and the singer's "Guest Book" from his old website, then Myspace...eventually it migrated to Facebook. I was part of a community where I'd say I was at least pretty well acquainted with close to a thousand people and closer friends with something like 60-80 of them, including the members of the band. I knew them for years online and then started meeting them in person. I was able to say, "I'm driving to the Tulsa show from Colorado tomorrow, who will be there?" and find a group of about 5 or 6 people to meet up with on arrival. And then possibly impress the heck out of them by taking them all around back of the venue where I'd holler out to one of the band members and get us taken backstage. It was fun times. But the guy I was closest to in the band died, and all hell broke loose in the form of wacky drama among the fans, and it just got stoopid. And other things have changed. And Covid happened, which reshuffled my priorities. Point being, if I'd been single I could have sourced that social group, or ANY social group anchored by an interest, for dates. Would have been easy. Later I got more into kink communities and Leather/BSDM clubs and between my 2 marriages I did date there. That was great fun, too. I still have ties to that group, but I'm on a bit of a social hiatus I think.
In dealing with some old family stuff from storage units, found a collection of art glass toothpick holders and cards and newsletters from a group that began in the 70s. The "National Toothpick Holders Collectors Society." And I looked them up on Facebook and they still remember Grandma who has been dead for decades. They have conventions. I'm sure that many lifelong friendships have started there, and there are a surprising number of men in the group.
I swear if people will connect socially over TOOTHPICK HOLDERS it can be gotdamn anything. And every social group is an opportunity to meet people. And some % of those people, might be people that one could perhaps end up dating.
Part of the problem with the incel mentality is that they are so obsessed with it being this forced and stilted "game" thing, that you cannot tell them that some other men (I'm sure they see them as "loud obnoxious Chads who slither") are just regular dudes who are not paralyzed by the thought of interacting with other human beings, who see women they might end up in bed with as just people to talk to at the outset, and who are not playing any kind of elaborate game. They're just living their lives, interacting with whoever, and whatever happens maybe happens. Because they are nowhere near as obsessed with it, don't overthink it, like the incel does. But the way that humans project means that he's likely to disbelieve, that anyone does not operate on these fundamental patterns of thinking that he does. He thinks that everyone overthinks their every gesture or word and is calculating it all to win some game. Most people are not.
Euskalherria, it's the bold part that matters. Friendliness CAN be a precursor to romance. The problem is when the incel is so obsessed with everything being part of a "game" that if a reasonably attractive woman is friendly to him, he then behaves as though she has OBLIGATED HERSELF to be with him. At that point, his desire for her becomes a Belief that it should happen. If she is in a relationship, he's just got to hover and wait. If she tries to resist, he's just got to keep trying, she's being delusional of course but she will see in time...
It is all the things that feel in the flavor of a fan stalking a celebrity. The fan thinks that they are in a relationship but that only exists in their head. The celebrity never consented to it. And some of this particular variety of incel will also put the woman on a weird pedestal of fantasy, and believe he truly knows her, the way that a wacky fan will think he knows a celebrity based on a character that they play. That's an extreme, but in some degree, I've seen it happen.
But this is just...a subtype, if you will. Many incels are not this way. I can only think of one of the ones from this forum board who has a history of doing this with a female friend.
.
"
I always try to put myself in someone else’s shoes and if I’m a dude who never gets female attention/companionship and I get a friend who’s showing me even a little of that I can easily see why some men get overly attatched.
Obviously some take it too far and stalk or are creepy but I think it’s unfair to categorize all struggle bros who do that as some creepy stalkers when a lot who do it are probably harmless and just yearn for affection and companionship and will hold on to dear life for any little they can get.
Obviously it’s not a great method to use but I think we can all see why someone in that position might get attatched and daydream even if it’s not realistic.
I always try to put myself in someone else’s shoes and if I’m a dude who never gets female attention/companionship and I get a friend who’s showing me even a little of that I can easily see why some men get overly attatched.
Obviously some take it too far and stalk or are creepy but I think it’s unfair to categorize all struggle bros who do that as some creepy stalkers when a lot who do it are probably harmless and just yearn for affection and companionship and will hold on to dear life for any little they can get.
Obviously it’s not a great method to use but I think we can all see why someone in that position might get attatched and daydream even if it’s not realistic.
There would certainly be a spectrum of relative seriousness where it could be a problem or not a problem.
I mean, I've always said I am not the eyeball or thought police. I don't concern myself with whether a man has thoughts or fantasies about me, for any reason.
But if he starts to think they might be kinda real, and tries to push them into my reality, and does not consider my boundaries or whether I might consent to that? Problem.
The reason that Cuddle Monster's phone call thing was over the line... Obviously calling a woman's place of employment could actually get her fired. He did not give any acknowledgment to that point. After all, an NPC wanders back and forth behind the counter and is not fully programmed in game to have a rent payment or to need to eat (other than if they get a date and then you go eat together.) She only exists insofar as the player character's engagement with her. She is a fantasy, not a real person. Her boundaries, priorities, and life otherwise do not matter.
How about the one where he searched around online and found her number. OK, presumably if one has done this, and can do this, then it follows that they have probably also found my name, maybe where I live. They already are making it clear that they know where I work. That is personal information I don't go around handing to strangers, and he is a stranger. In fact, I refused to give my phone number to people I connected with on dating apps until after the first date and only IF I thought I wanted to see them again. Until that point, it was text only through the app's messenger system. A phone number is PII. I protect mine to some extent. I don't have it available on Facebook. I don't answer unknown calls. I'm on the "do not call" list so legit telemarketers don't ring me.
Frankly the way this comes off is actually, "Your existence makes me so uncomfortable I can't even speak to you, so I want to enjoy finding a small way to make you uncomfortable, just to make you feel shaken the way that I do." Men do this and they make women feel unsafe, and they falsely have the impression that the woman finds it sexy, because sexy women scare them. But women don't like being scared. For us, it's not a cute game.
No matter how much the guy then is like, "Whaat? I was just playing, joking, not serious... I would never... It's just innocent... How else am I supposed to... "
Thing is, if a man has my phone number and a focused interest in me, it's not like I can simply block him if he wants to harass me 24/7. He can generate as many Google voip numbers as he wants. He can ring my work until I get fired. He can find out where my family members are and harass them. He can wait for me outside my home. Or maybe he can NOT do those things, but he can sit there smiling, imagining me being afraid that he might...being aroused by my discomfort and fear. Imagining a connection between us...
This is not just a guy who has a bit of fantasy about someone who was kind to him. This is a bully who alleviates his own feelings of fear and powerlessness by trying to create situations where he's got the power to violate other people without being accountable for it.
This is about a man who, when told he has violated boundaries, doubles down and defends his actions rather than saying, "OK I see why a woman might not like that." And while I am glad that MGTOW means he no longer does these behaviors (at least with any aim to date)...having joined a group where at least some chunk of the membership certainly still has really toxic views towards women, doesn't necessarily make it better.
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