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You're repeatedly misreading comments and spinning your wheels. I used the word white and you misread it and assumed white supremacism (you can't cite other white supremacism anywhere), then when someone noted that work provides financial independence to women, you imagined that people were advocating for removal of women from the workforce. Ocnj referred to women of the past over age 25, and you misread it said she is referring to women over 25 today. Spork said women want a net benefit to their lives, you misread that and said men don't want a burden.
I apologize if I've greatly misread or misunderstood most of the posts here, though in theory I'm not sure that I have. I still think there's some "victim-hood" being expressed here.
The point I've intended to make is that incels are a product of their environment... which comes from people today not socializing, spending too much time on their computer and in an echo-chamber, social media, and the sexualization of kids at a progressively younger and younger age... e.g. just not being normal.
It seems that many people seek to identify as a victim of something... and that's what I'm trying to express here.
I apologize if I've greatly misread or misunderstood most of the posts here, though in theory I'm not sure that I have. I still think there's some "victim-hood" being expressed here.
The point I've intended to make is that incels are a product of their environment... which comes from people today not socializing, spending too much time on their computer and in an echo-chamber, social media, and the sexualization of kids at a progressively younger and younger age... e.g. just not being normal.
It seems that many people seek to identify as a victim of something... and that's what I'm trying to express here.
This is true, but I am not sure that all of these people are Gen Z folks. I had a coworker who was convicted ~10 years ago of attempting to solicit a minor under age 14 in some sort of online sex sting. Even at that time, he was engaging in some pretty incelish behavior. At the time, he was living in an extended stay hotel. We’d ask him why on earth he wasn’t moving into an apartment as the area was inexpensive and he could afford it, and he had no good answer. I assume he was doing questionable stuff on his computer at the time and using a public WiFi at the hotel made him feel harder to track… IIRC, this guy is a late Millennial. I know he asked me out because I was nice to him and two coworkers I had at another job said they were nice to them when they were in school together and he also asked them out too. I don’t know where this guy was online that he even found this stuff, but it was out there even then.
A male coworker said he turned the coworker out for a night at a bar and felt guilty the guy got arrested that night, but we told him that turning someone down to go out to a bar typically doesn’t result in someone attempting to engage in underage sex with a minor under age 14!
I apologize if I've greatly misread or misunderstood most of the posts here, though in theory I'm not sure that I have. I still think there's some "victim-hood" being expressed here.
The point I've intended to make is that incels are a product of their environment... which comes from people today not socializing, spending too much time on their computer and in an echo-chamber, social media, and the sexualization of kids at a progressively younger and younger age... e.g. just not being normal.
It seems that many people seek to identify as a victim of something... and that's what I'm trying to express here.
To be fair I think that one can get some mixed messages from what I've been saying throughout the thread.
But those who have been here on CD (and particularly in Relationships) for about as long as I have, will know that it's because my own feelings on the matter are mixed, too. I started out in a position of just trying to be kind, and having compassion for other human beings who seem to be having a hard time in life.
But then we had the same guys, with the same problems, no matter what anyone said to them, for years...and years...then a decade... And man, I got tired. I just got burned out on the constant giving of empathy. I've had my own struggles and at some point if you flat out refuse to take any responsibility for your troubles, you deny yourself any power or chance to change anything.
And at some point I guess we gotta realize, some folks do not want solutions, they just want to complain.
MikeMo has a point, though I'm not sure women feel they lack leadership skills. I have met otherwise thoughtful women who want men to be open emotionally, but only in approved contexts.
And JBT has a point. His posting history does not exude confidence, so perhaps that colors perceptions of his comments, but it's interesting that zen and ocnjgirl took issue with JBT's remarks when Jill is clearly saying men should restrict their emotional lives, at least if they want women to find them attractive.
And yet they had no issue with gender essentialism behind Jill's comment. Not surprising, but interesting.
There’s a few posters who have a hard on for me and will react negatively to whatever I say.
@CUDDLE_MONSTER ... I absolutely don't want to trash you here, but it makes me really sad where we've come in society. I've been a computer programmer since I was 14 in the mid 1990s. It seems like so many people today meet each other online. If that works, I'm happy for them, but it makes the whole process so clinical... and I feel like people are so focused on "matches" ... I mean, what is that? That you guys have multiple things in common? You want a machine learning algorithm to match you up?
I'm a Gen-X... barely... almost a Millennial. But I met my wife at work. She's the antithesis of me. She's a Jewish Democrat, and I'm a Catholic Republican. I was a conservative looking individual, and she was dressed like a hippie. She came to my desk asking me for advice about cars, and we were married 2 years later. You can't find that kind of connection through an AI algorithm.
I've spent my entire life writing software... but I wish people would get off their damn computers and live their lives.
I agree with what you're saying about people being overly dependent on technology these days.
And it has only gotten worse with smart phone addiction.
In the past people might have an opportunity to engage each other when just going about their daily lives. Such as sitting in the waiting room of a doctor's office and so forth. But now almost everyone has their nose in their phone.
So even if a guy was able to get up the nerve to speak to a woman, she would either ignore him or look at him like she wants to kill him for interrupting her.
The ironic part of such a scenario is that she might be wasting time talking to some liar or player on a dating site while the guy who is perfect for her could be sitting right beside her.
The ironic part of such a scenario is that she might be wasting time talking to some liar or player on a dating site while the guy who is perfect for her could be sitting right beside her.
I apologize if I've greatly misread or misunderstood most of the posts here, though in theory I'm not sure that I have. I still think there's some "victim-hood" being expressed here.
The point I've intended to make is that incels are a product of their environment... which comes from people today not socializing, spending too much time on their computer and in an echo-chamber, social media, and the sexualization of kids at a progressively younger and younger age... e.g. just not being normal.
It seems that many people seek to identify as a victim of something... and that's what I'm trying to express here.
I think you're right. Everyone has a grievance. If their life isn't going well they want to blame someone. And when we'd probably agree that there is someone to blame, they hang onto their victimhood rather than taking responsibility for their lives and cleaning up the mess they didn't make. Men and women do this.
But this isn't happening in a vacuum. I think you did misinterpret several comments in this discussion, and in each case your interpretation fit your relatively simple explanation for incels. Your second paragraph above is actually the most nuanced comment you've made.
You say above that incels are products of their environment. I agree. I would define environment more broadly than you apparently. But to keep it fairly narrow and focusing on young men, maybe they need to believe they belong to something. Maybe our atomized society makes that more difficult than in the past several generations. Maybe we've torn down some of the ways men could define themselves and belong without having replaced those structures. Sometimes all I see is the rubble.
And maybe men who would always be toward the margins socially are going to struggle more when things are changing so rapidly, and when images of success and failure are every damned where. The more men who struggle, the greater the chance that one of them will tilt and shoot up a gym or a sorority house.
Even the men with underlying mental illness don't act out violently as their first response to their struggles. But maybe they land on incel promoting internet structures because mental health solutions aren't readily available, and many men can't seem to go there even when they are available. But now I'm broadening things. More simply;
-Men need to belong
-Men with Autism or social anxiety or personality disorders by definition struggle to belong
-Belonging is tougher structurally than it's been in generations
-All these things impact men's social lives and dating
-For some men failing to belong starts a downward spiral that at best makes belonging more difficult, and at worst leads to acting out with rare deadly consequences
I agree with what you're saying about people being overly dependent on technology these days.
And it has only gotten worse with smart phone addiction.
In the past people might have an opportunity to engage each other when just going about their daily lives. Such as sitting in the waiting room of a doctor's office and so forth. But now almost everyone has their nose in their phone.
So even if a guy was able to get up the nerve to speak to a woman, she would either ignore him or look at him like she wants to kill him for interrupting her.
The ironic part of such a scenario is that she might be wasting time talking to some liar or player on a dating site while the guy who is perfect for her could be sitting right beside her.
Do you really think most, or even a significant portion, of relationships start while waiting in the doctors office or on a bus? There are some places most people like to be left alone, there are other places where people are interested in meeting others.
Also, if somebody is on their phone, that is a good sign that they are not interested in talking. You should consider the phone to be an aid in understanding what others want.
I think airplanes are a great example of this. Nobody really wants to have to engage in conversation for 1-6 hours with a stranger sitting next to them. Reading a book/phone is a great defense. Nonetheless, it is polite to great a person sitting next to you, and if both are interested this can lead to a conversation.
Of course cell phones have changed the way we interact. But that merely means we approach people just a bit differently.
Looking back at the thread title, I will make an observation that has probably been mentioned by others previously.
It isn’t sex that needs to be demystified. I think everybody understands the general concept of sex. Rather the problem seems to be communication. How does a person approach someone they are interested in.
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