POV: Human beings are naturally and inherently religious/spiritual (thoughts, humans, people)
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We may be born with a moral ‘core’, so to speak, relative to psychological health i.e. consciousness/the brain; but its development is ongoing. That said, it is far different from humans being inherently religious (per your OP).
This. That's why we get so prickly when we try to talk about it. We're confused about definitions.
Even modern medicine knows humans need three components for healing - attendance to their body, mind and spirit. They borrowed that from the ancient healers though initially tending to the spirit was ignored as superstition with references to witch doctors rattling their noisemakers and dancing around the fire.
Or ministers coming in to pray for patients. Not necessary and superstitious. Yet studies find that those who have that spiritual support, whatever it is in their community, tend to heal better than those who don't.
It's not what is done that makes the difference, it's the sense of a deep community connection and support.
The fact that since people have existed we have found evidence of decorating graves, chanting, drumming and rituals speaks loudly to the fact that some human need was being addressed.
I don't think it was religious although that's how most of us thought about it. I think at its root it addressed the basic intangible human needs over which we sometimes have no control - safety and well-being, belonging to a group, Or at it's most ideal "peace and love."
Without those elements people have difficulty thriving.
So my definition of spirituality is about how do I fit into my world? How do I function with other people? From where do I draw strength and encouragement? Do I return it?
Do I respect others and my surroundings? Is my attitude positive and grateful? Do I help or hurt? Do I have a moral code to which I am faithful and which protects me and others?
I think the need for developing our spiritual potential is less apparent in the modern world but it still vital for a full, productive life. It's more about how and less about what. Being less materialistic it's more difficult to grasp and talk about.
Chances are everyone who loves to sing with others has felt it at one time or another. Every stage of human development seems to have had it's own type of music.
I like to think of music as the language of the spirit, expressing emotion, joining us in unity.
So how do people find their meaning, ethics, morals, philosophy and behavioral traits in life? And how do you think cultures were able to develop?
I think that individuals can absolutely get meaning, ethics, morals and philosophy and behaviors, without ever belonging to any religion. I was raised with no religion in my life. Did not go to any church, though my Mom vaguely was like "sure we believe in god and stuff"...I wasn't really given the teachings or trappings of any kind of religious practice.
My morality therefore is very, VERY much centered on concepts related to reduction of harm and suffering. Not what the Bible or any authority figure told me, but my own horror at seeing and experiencing harm and suffering, of people, of animals, of myself. I was taught to be kind. Cruelty and bully behavior is about as repugnant as it gets for me.
And if presented with a moral rule that was a feature of someone else's expectations, based on their beliefs, I would consider if it appeared to reduce harm. Or if it does, does it do so by simply shifting the harm from one person to another? Does it decrease suffering or increase it? What are the downstream consequences that might not be immediately obvious, are they harmful, and can they be mitigated? A lot of my sexual ethics and morals depart from most traditional teachings for instance, because of this kind of thinking. Some of the "rules" though...might be in fact, good to follow, if not always for the reasons that they are commonly presented.
I have always been very offended if anyone seemed to want "don't think, don't question, just obey" from me. And if I do not agree with the rationale behind a rule, there's a very good chance that I will disregard it. Show me where someone was harmed or would be harmed...and I will however adhere more strictly to it than many who simply pay lip service to morality in the name of religious authority. A person who follows a rule because they affirmatively consent to do so, is in my opinion more trustworthy than one who simply fears punishment. And hypocrisy in religion is a well known thing.
Though as a teenager, I did pick up a lot of religious and spiritual books and I felt like I was searching for something there, but no established model seemed to be a perfect fit, so I abandoned that and now I just take bits of good philosophy where I find them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar
This. That's why we get so prickly when we try to talk about it. We're confused about definitions.
Even modern medicine knows humans need three components for healing - attendance to their body, mind and spirit. They borrowed that from the ancient healers though initially tending to the spirit was ignored as superstition with references to witch doctors rattling their noisemakers and dancing around the fire.
Or ministers coming in to pray for patients. Not necessary and superstitious. Yet studies find that those who have that spiritual support, whatever it is in their community, tend to heal better than those who don't.
It's not what is done that makes the difference, it's the sense of a deep community connection and support.
The fact that since people have existed we have found evidence of decorating graves, chanting, drumming and rituals speaks loudly to the fact that some human need was being addressed.
I don't think it was religious although that's how most of us thought about it. I think at its root it addressed the basic intangible human needs over which we sometimes have no control - safety and well-being, belonging to a group, Or at it's most ideal "peace and love."
Without those elements people have difficulty thriving.
So my definition of spirituality is about how do I fit into my world? How do I function with other people? From where do I draw strength and encouragement? Do I return it?
Do I respect others and my surroundings? Is my attitude positive and grateful? Do I help or hurt? Do I have a moral code to which I am faithful and which protects me and others?
I think the need for developing our spiritual potential is less apparent in the modern world but it still vital for a full, productive life. It's more about how and less about what. Being less materialistic it's more difficult to grasp and talk about.
Chances are everyone who loves to sing with others has felt it at one time or another. Every stage of human development seems to have had it's own type of music.
I like to think of music as the language of the spirit, expressing emotion, joining us in unity.
I love this post!
You know what I'm reminded of?
I tend to be better than some people I know at discerning deception, at understanding nuance and the unspoken, at "empathy"... This whole thing, all of that, it isn't some magical ability. I believe that it's the thing where a child who grew up around erratic, unpredictable, sometimes abusive adults, learns to carefully read context and expression and hints of body language for clues, in order to try to be safe.
I am also really good at finding misplaced objects. We joke that it's my superpower. But all it is, is an ability to stay calm and to think about where, logically, a thing may have ended up. Where someone else might just be tossing the house apart in a panic...which just makes more chaos and difficulty.
So. "Spirituality" is important. But as you say. What does that mean?
There are certain events and activities I've been a part of where the only way I can describe it is, "the energy in the room." I feel as though there is a meter on my heart that is being recharged, filled up, just being in a place where I feel happiness and belonging and acceptance. And we do know that our bodies have real reactions to stress, and I think that it is highly likely that spirituality in, say, healing...if something like cortisol levels, muscle tension, blood pressure, biological markers that can measure stress, were being observed, you'd find all of that improving if a person were experiencing something that they found to be spiritually meaningful.
Placebos work sometimes. The power of our brains and beliefs, is significant. It might not be an absolute thing, but it is a thing.
I think the need for developing our spiritual potential is less apparent in the modern world but it still vital for a full, productive life. It's more about how and less about what. Being less materialistic it's more difficult to grasp and talk about.
Point being (particularly relative to a Psychology Forum, lol), we need not be spiritual or religious in order to be psychologically healthy and happy. We simply develop morality relative to our environment (and the law) via our own consciousness/brain, as opposed to being told what we should do or feel by way of religion - or a forum, for that matter. :-)
Point being (particularly relative to a Psychology Forum, lol), we need not be spiritual or religious in order to be psychologically healthy and happy. We simply develop morality relative to our environment (and the law) via our own consciousness/brain, as opposed to being told what we should do or feel by way of religion - or a forum, for that matter. :-)
I yell, "Bingo!" Heh.
And sometimes I get frustrated with the adversarials who focus is on who's right and who's wrong. It's not the point. The point is finding a path of growth and well-being and in doing so improving our world. What could be a more important goal? Since we're all in this together, but not identical, encouraging each other in that direction is a good focus.
We all have spiritual needs whether we know it or not. It's lack of which makes babies fail to thrive if they aren't held and spoken to. It's the glue that helps us work together instead of against each other. Really the solution to our earthly problems and we dismiss it.
Another way to describe body, mind and spirit might be: Well, the body is obvious. So's the mind. The spirit is psychological. No wonder so many people think psychology is woo!
The spirit is what makes us feel full of good, helps us know we are being our best selves, It's expressed in our minds and bodies by our thoughts and behavior. It connects us to the Universe.
It's our "adjustment," our attitude reflected in our social and physical environment. This is what good psychology can improve.
We all have spiritual needs whether we know it or not. It's lack of which makes babies fail to thrive if they aren't held and spoken to.
You’re speaking to a lack of love (or perhaps a lack of competence/mental health). We strongly disagree re: inherent ‘spiritual needs’ (per the OP) - particularly relative to Psychology. That said, we do all have the need to love/connect with others re: relationships and community i.e. no man is an island.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar
Another way to describe body, mind and spirit might be: Well, the body is obvious. So's the mind. The spirit is psychological. No wonder so many people think psychology is woo!
Psychology is relative to (and the study of) the mind/human behavior. It does not have anything to do with ‘spirits’ or ‘woo’.
So, even if religion is becoming obsolete and outdated, because to some it is seen as opressive, coercive and conformist and promotes blind faith, I would argue it helps not only with promoting a sense of structure and order, it also helps with self-discipline, in particular from a moral and physcological perspective. I would also argue without religion, the laws written into legal systems all across the world, would be harder to agree upon, everything would be of a subjective matter
Well the oppressive, coercive and conformist view (at least of Christianity) is due to the poor teaching that is out there; that at least is why it's becoming obsolete and outdated in this country. But don't worry, it's growing astronomically in other countries and this one's not going to last much longer (at least as the great world power that it is; it will become something far different than what we have known just a decade or so ago not to mention a couple generations prior).
As far as laws go, you're right that without something concrete on which to base laws it becomes a matter of subjectivity. We see that already here in the States. Watch out for the pedophilia pride parade coming soon to an urban area near you. Not sure in how many years that will be--I'm not that good of a prophet. But my words will be fact before time ceases to exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luciano700
So even if you don't practice religion, that same physcological void could be filled with something else, either a life philosophy to live by, such as stoicism, existentialism, nihilism, hedonism, cynicism, etc or a whole obsession with something very external such as pop culture, music, celebrities, sports, let's not forget politics, that's a touchy one
Well, religion is just what you worship. And EVERYONE worships something. Most people (at least here in this country and probably other non-third countries) worship themselves. I think many people confuse religion broadly speaking with organized religion; but the worship of self is just a one person organization. You get to make up the rules and order of what that system looks like.
Worship is what is central to your life--what your life revolves around. And like I said for most people, that is themselves. I can only speak for Biblical Christianity since that is the religion I espouse, but for us our life revolves around the Lord Jesus. Now, many people here in this country will say that they're a Christian but it's very easy to be one in this country right now. They think they have Jesus as central to their life but if push comes to shove, they'll put something else in his place eventually. Not too far in the future, I feel however that this will not so much be the case.
So even if you don't practice religion, that same physcological void could be filled with something else, either a life philosophy to live by, such as stoicism, existentialism, nihilism, hedonism, cynicism, etc or a whole obsession with something very external such as pop culture, music, celebrities, sports, let's not forget politics, that's a touchy one
Climate Change. We sacrifice trillions of dollars on that god's altar each year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentropa
...it serves the same evolutionary function as magic/superstition.
Well the oppressive, coercive and conformist view (at least of Christianity) is due to the poor teaching that is out there; that at least is why it's becoming obsolete and outdated in this country. But don't worry, it's growing astronomically in other countries and this one's not going to last much longer (at least as the great world power that it is; it will become something far different than what we have known just a decade or so ago not to mention a couple generations prior).
As far as laws go, you're right that without something concrete on which to base laws it becomes a matter of subjectivity. We see that already here in the States. Watch out for the pedophilia pride parade coming soon to an urban area near you. Not sure in how many years that will be--I'm not that good of a prophet. But my words will be fact before time ceases to exist.
Well, religion is just what you worship. And EVERYONE worships something. Most people (at least here in this country and probably other non-third countries) worship themselves. I think many people confuse religion broadly speaking with organized religion; but the worship of self is just a one person organization. You get to make up the rules and order of what that system looks like.
Worship is what is central to your life--what your life revolves around. And like I said for most people, that is themselves. I can only speak for Biblical Christianity since that is the religion I espouse, but for us our life revolves around the Lord Jesus. Now, many people here in this country will say that they're a Christian but it's very easy to be one in this country right now. They think they have Jesus as central to their life but if push comes to shove, they'll put something else in his place eventually. Not too far in the future, I feel however that this will not so much be the case.
You seem to be trying to say that the version of Christianity that you espouse is "the good kind" rather than anything oppressive or conformist, but then bring up a fabricated boogeyman designed to set up and attack a fake threat, which is a classic move for oppressive, conformist Christianity. And you are illustrating one of the power moves of organized religion. Going beyond the healthy aspect which is community and belonging, it treads into toxic tribalism, which is to identify that which is "other" and therefore "enemy" or demonic or evil or whatever. Whatever you were told not to like is "pedophile!" Oldest trick in the book.
The real reason that a lot of organized religions send young people door to door is not to gain converts, because that doesn't actually tend to happen...it is to have them get doors shut in their face and experience feelings of rejection from other elements of society, so that they feel "my church is the only group that accepts and loves me, the rest of the world is mean and rejecting." That massively reinforces their feelings of dedication to the church, and their superior sense of specialness and enlightenment for belonging to the "right" group.
But the reality is that a vast majority of people are mostly decent humans just trying to live life. The faithful are not little precious islands of good in a writhing sea of evil. And if you think that a cleansing force of pure Christian faith is going to wash in from some other country, then you are cooperating in the destruction of America. The truly evil do exist, and should definitely be rooted out and purged from society, but the far more pervasive evil will come from those who blindly follow and perpetrate horror and cruelty on many others in the name of their righteousness.
To the point.
The LGBTQ+ community is not full of pedophiles, nor does it embrace or welcome them. So trying to link "Pride" to that...is one heck of a tell. The old "they are coming to get your children!" propaganda is one of the oldest tricks in the book. It's been used to channel righteous anger for at least hundreds if not thousands of years. And THAT is one of the reasons I dislike organized religion. It's been used as a means to manipulate people, by unscrupulous power grabbers, pretty much forever. It's plugged right into people's emotions, already set up to demand "faith" (which is nothing if not belief without proof.)
I believe that our need for "the spiritual" is mostly a matter of strong biological and neurochemical enforcement of the social behaviors of our species. Humanity thrives because of two things, our intelligence and our social behavior. Without either of them, we would have died out long ago. But at times the two things are at odds, when other people try our patience sometimes it's easy to think of just going away alone. Our intellect will inevitably bring about disagreements and conflicts. The emotional and neurochemical reinforcement of social behavior keeps our individualism from leading us away from our groups. It triggers when we feel safe among our own, when we trust leaders of our groups, when group beliefs seem to be reinforced.
What greater proof could there be, for belonging in the group, than a demand for belief in a thing for which there is no rational evidence, a belief that is NOT shared by other groups. And easy it is, for any leader of people, to direct our righteous rage with manufactured threats and false accusations. Witches, heathens, infidels, pedophiles. Pick a word, it's all the same. "Those other humans are a threat to your way of life!" And how thoroughly it shuts down conscience and compassion and awakens our most cruel and brutal impulses, if only we can be made to believe that those others deserve it.
How else could we resolve the fact that every religion tells us not to kill other people...unless of course, they are bad people. In wars, or so long as someone told us they were evil...with or without any real proof to support such a claim.
Some of you seem to have really been traumatised by the people who introduced you to religion. It might help if you talk to someone about it.
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