The Psychology of Amatonormativity (attracted, attractive, complex, relationship)
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There are things about the norm that probably bother every individual in some way or another. It's just one of the burdens of life, thinking what bothers us is any more important than what bothers others. Part of becoming socially mature involves accepting we are more like other people than we are different.
The kind of depression the OP is talking about - seeing so many people who don't share OP's views, is optional. It can be discouraging; it can be tiresome, but take care you don't allow it to become depression.
It does make the issue seem more urgent to present it as serious enough that it's a mental health issue. We see a lot of that happening now. People wanting change because they don't like the feelings they are having and wanting others to fix it for them. That approach often, in extreme cases, can lead to addiction, possibly suicide, even in a prosperous society.
It's not that it isn't a mental health issue but the issue is a matter of learning to put uncomfortable feelings into perspective. Not mental illness.
I don't share the belief that romantic relationships are the main goal of the majority of humans. They may be in the top five but certainly not number one. I'm wondering about the age group you're in because it can look different from some perspectives.
It's worth keeping in mind that a lot of the things we humans think are needs are really wants. I'd suggest having society recognize your preferences could be expecting too much and you'll still be fine without it. In fact, I know you can.
I forget which thread I was on, but I posted an article that described how about half of the single people over 40 had no desire to 'pair up' with anyone. Aren't those people who don't wish to pair up, also part of 'society'?
This has always been my contention as well. I've always thought it was weak to claim "yeah but society says...." when making a personal complaint. Society is not a monolithic thing.
I know I've been lucky that my life has been spent living in places where I never felt a real pressure to always be in a romantic relationship, or of i did, it was pretty evident that the people spouting that pressure were d-bags and/or old-fashioned types.
I don't like how some people start to throw the word "discrimination" around when discussing this. I think that's a bit of a aggrandizement.
Seems like a lot of overcomplicating things. For the first million years or so of our species, it's been about survival. Survival of the individual. Survival of the family group/tribe/whatever term you pick. Survival of the species.
Given the historical mortality rate, having lots of children was critical. Because of the time it takes to raise a child to maturity and to train that child on the skills need to survive, it worked out that bonding into pairs and groups increased the probability of survival of the individual and the group as well as the increasing prosperity of the group.
It's only within roughly the last century that we have reached an economic level where that isn't strictly necessary for the individual, though it still support the growth of the group as a whole.
Hence today we get overly complex arguments from a subset of the species that the entire species should change what is basically built in to our DNA to adapt to them.
It's only within roughly the last century that we have reached an economic level where that isn't strictly necessary for the individual, though it still support the growth of the group as a whole.
Hence today we get overly complex arguments from a subset of the species that the entire species should change what is basically built in to our DNA to adapt to them.
I don't think anyone is saying that those who want to be or are happily partnered up need to not want that. From my perspective, I'd like those people to understand that I really am fine on my own, and all the questions about "meeting someone special" or "no plus one this time?" are intrusive. Please believe me when I say I'm perfectly content.
I don't think anyone is saying that those who want to be or are happily partnered up need to not want that. From my perspective, I'd like those people to understand that I really am fine on my own, and all the questions about "meeting someone special" or "no plus one this time?" are intrusive. Please believe me when I say I'm perfectly content.
Yes. This exactly, it's not really about changing the system or telling people to live their lives differently. But more so being sensitive and not gaslighting those who genuinely feel comfortable living their lives a different way. I also didn't say anything about being "discriminated" against. I wouldn't go that far. But I will say there are covert social implications that come with not doing life by the script we are given. I've had people feel disturbingly comfortable questioning my mental health and sexuality all because THEY have not witness me being in a relationship. To the point where they would ask my mom about my personal life. Which is super inappropriate. People assume you're sad and lonely and even try to convince you that you're missing something because you are not interested and are happy the way you are.
It's all about rude or clueless people assuming things about you. That can be so frustrating. It's invalidating to question someone who has stated they are fine with the way they are.
But the hard truth is those people are always out there. In one-to-one communication sometimes you can teach them not to do that with you. Over time that gets to be a tiresome task.
Eventually you may come to decide, like Eleanor Roosevelt is once quoted as saying, "What other people think about me is none of my business." I like the freedom of allowing people to be wrong.
I think that even right here there is evidence of a thing I always see as frustrating... It's this basic underlying subroutine of "everyone MUST be the same" (or something?) that appears to run in the background of a lot of people's brains.
What I am pointing to, is how a few have come in and said that OP might have been trying to suggest that all or most people should be like she is. I didn't see that. And then, too, the reaction of a lot of "normal" (in whatever way) people, when someone says, "Look, I am different in this particular way but it's no big deal, alright? I'm happy as I am. Let me be." Then if one is to accept a person being different, then somehow it means if you are saying it's OK then you must also be saying that EVERYONE should do it. No one ever said that "it's fine if some people do a thing" = "everyone should change and also do the thing."
It is the basic programming that says that there is only one set of expected behaviors and life choices that are right and any and every deviation is wrong. Someone might just want to be a bit different without being seen as wrong...and also not triggering some weird defense of, "well of course everyone can't just change to accommodate you!" when no one asked everyone to do so... Just please stop seeing those who do a different thing as somehow a major threat to anybody else's way of life, because they/we aren't.
Of course in a much more direct and specific way, I cannot count how many times Auraliea or some other poster has tried to say that they were asexual and/or aromantic and had other posters ask probing personal questions about their physical and mental health. There are a host of things that people seem to feel entitled to question that are none of their business, and the underlying aggravation of, "you must want this fixed, does not everyone want to be normal like us? Let's explore how to fix this deviation that you never said was a problem but surely must be..."
It's also something that bugged me about the scads of conversations that were had about whether homosexuality is from nature or nurture or both or what... Like, if it's "nature" (genetics) then some would be seeking a medical or genetic "cure" and if it's "nurture" then we could "fix" gayness with therapy or conversion camps... Like how about there is nothing wrong, stop trying to fix it, these folks are not broken thanks.
Now if people are actually saying that society has a right to enforce norms and protect itself from scary deviations in typical behavior and that's how it is and the "weirdos" need to stop asking for people to quit being jerks, they were always jerks and have a right to be jerks... If the "don't expect everyone to change for you" is really saying, "we defend people's right to be intrusive, bullying, and nasty to anyone who is different, how dare you ask for even basic manners and respect in how you're treated?" Well, I would like to hope that as a species we can evolve in a direction away from acting like chimps and beating each other over the head with rocks and sticks every time we disagree about anything. It would be nice, you know. And the only way I know of is to promote a culture of tolerance and diversity, not to insulate into grim little bubbles of sameness all hating on any "outsider" we might encounter and constantly in conflict because anything not like our one image is "wrong." It is the essential ideological foundation of a "progressive" mindset, in my opinion.
This...this is one small thing but I really think it connects to a much bigger thing.
I think that even right here there is evidence of a thing I always see as frustrating... It's this basic underlying subroutine of "everyone MUST be the same" (or something?) that appears to run in the background of a lot of people's brains.
What I am pointing to, is how a few have come in and said that OP might have been trying to suggest that all or most people should be like she is. I didn't see that. And then, too, the reaction of a lot of "normal" (in whatever way) people, when someone says, "Look, I am different in this particular way but it's no big deal, alright? I'm happy as I am. Let me be." Then if one is to accept a person being different, then somehow it means if you are saying it's OK then you must also be saying that EVERYONE should do it. No one ever said that "it's fine if some people do a thing" = "everyone should change and also do the thing."
It is the basic programming that says that there is only one set of expected behaviors and life choices that are right and any and every deviation is wrong. Someone might just want to be a bit different without being seen as wrong...and also not triggering some weird defense of, "well of course everyone can't just change to accommodate you!" when no one asked everyone to do so... Just please stop seeing those who do a different thing as somehow a major threat to anybody else's way of life, because they/we aren't.
Of course in a much more direct and specific way, I cannot count how many times Auraliea or some other poster has tried to say that they were asexual and/or aromantic and had other posters ask probing personal questions about their physical and mental health. There are a host of things that people seem to feel entitled to question that are none of their business, and the underlying aggravation of, "you must want this fixed, does not everyone want to be normal like us? Let's explore how to fix this deviation that you never said was a problem but surely must be..."
It's also something that bugged me about the scads of conversations that were had about whether homosexuality is from nature or nurture or both or what... Like, if it's "nature" (genetics) then some would be seeking a medical or genetic "cure" and if it's "nurture" then we could "fix" gayness with therapy or conversion camps... Like how about there is nothing wrong, stop trying to fix it, these folks are not broken thanks.
Now if people are actually saying that society has a right to enforce norms and protect itself from scary deviations in typical behavior and that's how it is and the "weirdos" need to stop asking for people to quit being jerks, they were always jerks and have a right to be jerks... If the "don't expect everyone to change for you" is really saying, "we defend people's right to be intrusive, bullying, and nasty to anyone who is different, how dare you ask for even basic manners and respect in how you're treated?" Well, I would like to hope that as a species we can evolve in a direction away from acting like chimps and beating each other over the head with rocks and sticks every time we disagree about anything. It would be nice, you know. And the only way I know of is to promote a culture of tolerance and diversity, not to insulate into grim little bubbles of sameness all hating on any "outsider" we might encounter and constantly in conflict because anything not like our one image is "wrong." It is the essential ideological foundation of a "progressive" mindset, in my opinion.
This...this is one small thing but I really think it connects to a much bigger thing.
Yes, Sonic, this response is perfection. People like you genuinely give me hope lol. You have definitely been blessed with the gift of understanding or at least making a great effort to. I can only hope to obtain a 10th of your level of patience and understanding lol. I feel this conversation is hard for people to understand is because: 1. We haven't developed the proper "language" to properly ariticulate it. and 2. A lot of people have had the priviledge to not have to think about this stuff. They were able to go along with the status quo because well..they probably lucked out and it worked for them.
A lot of countries were primarily built by and for people who are primarily hetero and monogomous. It didn't have to take into account the deviations. To expand on your point about having this conversation, it definitely isn't about getting society to change or telling people they're wrong. It's moreso about how people seem to lack common sense and decency when it comes to people's personal lives. People think it's okay to ask these questions because they may genuinely believe it's all in the name of finding "love." I always thought it was weird that there were "norms" and expectations for how people should conduct themselves personally. I mean no one would encourage someone to get out there and find the right person if they were recently widowed, just got out of an abusive situation, or recently divorced. That would be seen as incredibly insensitive and rude. No one knows why someone is "single."
I have gotten to the point where I avoid conversations about romantic relationships IRL because it just gets awkward and it's hard to talk to people about how I feel because they assume I'm just complaining about being single. And that is not the case at all. I'm simply just sharing my experience with them and it gets completely twisted into "Well you've never done this so you don't know" "Well you have to do this first and then you'll get it" "You just haven't met the right person." Then I get all confused and just kind of shut up and accept it. Only to feel isolated and misunderstood later on. It starts to create a rift after awhile becuase you feel NO ONE sees you.
There are so many things I have to think about or skirt around because I truly feel they don't apply to me, but people around me would never know because they ddn't HAVE to think about this stuff. And they don't realize how deeply interwoven these things are.
Yes, Sonic, this response is perfection. People like you genuinely give me hope lol. You have definitely been blessed with the gift of understanding or at least making a great effort to. I feel this conversation is hard for people to understand is because: 1. We haven't developed the proper "language" to properly ariticulate it. and 2. A lot of people have had the priviledge to not have to think about this stuff. They were able to go along with the status quo because well..they probably lucked out and it worked for them.
A lot of countries were primarily built by and for people who are primarily hetero and monogomous. It didn't have to take into account the deviations. To expand on your point about having this conversation, it definitely isn't about getting society to change or telling people they're wrong. It's moreso about how people seem to lack common sense and decency when it comes to people's personal lives. People think it's okay to ask these questions because they may genuinely believe it's all in the name of finding "love." I always thought it was weird that there were "norms" and expectations for how people should conduct themselves personally. I mean no one would encourage someone to get out there and find the right person if they were recently widowed, just got out of an abusive situation, or recently divorced. That would be seen as incredibly insensitive and rude. No one knows why someone is "single."
And I was not following the script in that immediately after I broke up with my abusive ex, he and I were both trying to date other people and I really believed that was for the best. I was not in a rush to find the next "One" for a big serious commitment, no...but I saw no reason to be alone. And I badly, BADLY needed a support network to help me make sense of my situation and reassure me and give me moral support in getting transitioned safely out to a better life. I'm happy my ex was trying to date others because regardless of how it was going, it distracted him from being too focused on me. I had no family in the area, and all of my friends from before the split were HIS friends and I didn't want to come off like I was trash talking him to people he knew...I needed my own people. Dating was how I found them. Not just the individuals I dated, but a big social group I found through a few of said people.
I don't know if I could have got through it on my own. When you're dealing with someone who does a lot of DARVO and gaslighting, twisting things to make himself out as the victim and all...you need someone in your corner to remind you that you are NOT the crazy one.
People get these scripts in their minds of how they think all sorts of things should work, but I think that real life is complicated and messy and we all have to make our decisions as best we can with all of the factors we're working with. If it's working for you, and harming no one else, then you're doing life right, I say! Who is more qualified to evaluate all of the variables in your own situation and mind and heart, than you are? Nobody.
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I have gotten to the point where I avoid conversations about romantic relationships IRL because it just gets awkward and it's hard to talk to people about how I feel because they assume I'm just complaining about being single. And that is not the case at all. I'm simply just sharing my experience with them and it gets completely twisted into "Well you've never done this so you don't know" "Well you have to do this first and then you'll get it" "You just haven't met the right person." Then I get all confused and just kind of shut up and accept it. Only to feel isolated and misunderstood later on. It starts to create a rift after awhile becuase you feel NO ONE sees you.
There are so many things I have to think about or skirt around because I truly feel they don't apply to me, but people around me would never know because they ddn't HAVE to think about this stuff. And they don't realize how deeply interwoven these things are.
And I guess the only bit of advice that I would offer is to remember to be kind and not bring all of the built up baggage from all of the previous conversations to throw at someone who has good intentions...unless of course they are pushy and end up deserving it. An example of that, I had a child free friend many years ago, who was SO good with my kids when they were little. They loved her. She had a glowing disposition, we all loved her. One day I said to her, "I know that you don't want to have any children and don't plan to...but if you did, you would be so good at it." It was meant as a compliment to her skills in interacting with kids. Not as some sort of a "you should reconsider your choices." But since she had heard so many times that others thought she should have kids, she was pretty defensive and she got upset with me. I had a lot of explaining to do, and in the end had to pretty much just accept that she never wanted to hear anything of the sort, and back off.
It did not harm our friendship. But I reenacted that conversation in my mind for years, because I have never felt that she got the real message I was trying to convey, or believed me when I said I really was NOT saying she should have children. But of course I could not bring it up again, without just annoying her all over... so the awkwardness just gets to live in my head forever I guess. lol Oh well.
So kinda sense for any possible vibe that anyone might just be trying to tell you that you've got valuable and worthwhile qualities that any "partner" type person would be privileged to experience....but you aren't obligated to share them regardless. Y'know? Tons of people also directly tie the value of an individual, to their partnering prospects, and it's hard for them to mentally disentangle the two things. Try not to get upset if someone's basically just trying to say that you are a good human...in their own way. If that makes any sense?
Contrary to popular belief, there are a lot of flaws within this system that go completely unnoticed and/or are blatantly ignored. This can have negative impacts mental health, friendships, and romantic relationships.
It's not only mental health, friendships, and romantic relationships. It's also physical health.
Single and kid-free here, and I had the darnedest time getting a colonoscopy. Oh, folks may laugh, but in a lot of places, a health facility will not let you take a rideshare home, even though the current medications used in colonoscopies are much more easily, thoroughly, and quickly reversed than they were 20 years ago. Nope, they want someone you know to drive you home and take responsibility for you. Yeah, well, my friends work. "No partner?" Nope. "No family nearby?" Nope. I couldn't stay in the waiting room for a couple of hours, either. And I was too young for the volunteer services that take older folks to and from medical appointments. Finally a friend with a flexible job and a cool boss who didn't care if she stepped away for a few hours offered to take me home.
As off-topic as this sounds, it's yet another way that society is set up for people with partners and/or families. And that's dangerous, because it means a lot of people who have to get certain types of outpatient screenings and procedures won't get them. It's as though society doesn't care whether people who don't fit a "traditional" narrative live or die. That's pretty hurtful, if ask me.
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Originally Posted by Thoreau424
Of course there have always been people with different approaches and preferences. Nothing new there. And America's selling point is personal freedom and liberty. No one is restricted in what they do, as long as it is legal. But that doesn't mean others are to also be in agreement with the unique choices. That's never been a right or expectation.
So just because there is a 8% (or whatever) that might represent the exceptions to cultural norms, doesn't mean the majority can or should do things different. That never would never fly in any country or nation. That seems to be the premise in the opening thread.
Human traits that have existed for thousands of years are not going to get somehow reengineered now just to please the few who are different.
Human traits? What does that even mean? The point of it this is that traits vary from person to person more than most would think, and certainly more than most religious leaders and politicians of a certain bent would have us all believe. And no one is saying that anyone should change their own personal lives to please anyone else. What people are saying is to be inclusive of the 8% you mention. You may think it's "only" 8%, but here's a little lesson drawn from population health and epidemiology: percentages mean absolutely squat in terms of ethics when you consider what they translate to in real numbers. Eight percent of 8 billion people is 640 million. That's a lot of people to exclude or discriminate against. People. Human beings with hearts and minds and thoughts and feelings, people who should have the same human rights as the other 92%, including the right to live authentically and free from harm.
And exclusion is harmful.
But I'll go you one better: Society IS changing, at least in the US. The number of people living without a spouse or partner is rising. Intrusive questions about sexuality and romanticism aside, which are private matters, the result is pretty much the same: Fewer families with kids, more people living alone. Any country where that is happening MUST adapt to this shift and become more inclusive of people who do not fit some picket-fence dream or risk higher health care costs, greater substance use problems, higher crime, lost productivity in the workplace, and higher suicide rates, because people who are cast aside or discriminated against have a much greater risk of all of those things.
Personally, I think the sooner we jettison the assumption that everyone fits into some kind of mold determined by Judeo/Christian/Islamic dogma--because let's face it, that's where a lot of these "norms" come from, from holy books written by cisgender hetero men to preserve power for themselves--the better. Why? Because dogma just ain't natural. In fact, it's pretty rootin' tootin' harmful to all but the small group of people who preach it and those who are just like them.
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