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It may not be walk-able TODAY. But Raleigh and DTR is growing. The next direction will be south. Having an anchor spot like this will encourage faster growth to the south.
You can see downtown from 440, so I am sure the downtown views will be fine. Outside of foliage blocking the view.
Plus, having a 20k+ outdoor venue will allow Raleigh to bring in more musical acts. No more driving to Walnut Creek.
Anything is possible, but looking at the map, there’s a whole lot of natural and man made features in the way. Maybe they can run a Greenaway over the creeks and under the highways. I’d hope they’ve run this by MLS first but if they want downtown, this ain’t it.
The project takes advantage of tax incentives offered through development of so-called opportunity zones.
As Grumpycat would say, how about no! If some billionaire wants to build a complex for a game no one watches then he can spend his own money. As someone mentioned earlier this smell like Dell II, Electric Boogaloo. Or maybe the Music Man.
It is laughable to say that this new site is “downtown”. Only in the much larger sense could you say that in the fact that it is inside the belt line and not in, say, north raleigh. It is not walkable to anything in the area. I’m not even sure it will have a decent view of downtown from that spot.
From a TBJ article the proposal includes:
1.5 million sf of Office Space
1000+ hotel rooms
1,750 residential units
125,000 sf of retail and restaurant space
20,000 seat soccer stadium
Compared to Downtown Durham it's about 1/2 the office space, 300+ more hotel rooms, 1/3 of the residential units, probably comparable retail, and a stadium that seats 2x the capacity of DBAP.
It's like they're picking up a city 1/2 the size of downtown Durham and setting it back down just south of downtown Raleigh. Keep in mind that's just the Kane/Malik portion. If you put that much development on the south end, downtown is going to expand south from the warehouse district. The definition of "downtown" will just have to grow a bit.
1.5 million sf of Office Space
1000+ hotel rooms
1,750 residential units
125,000 sf of retail and restaurant space
20,000 seat soccer stadium
Compared to Downtown Durham it's about 1/2 the office space, 300+ more hotel rooms, 1/3 of the residential units, probably comparable retail, and a stadium that seats 2x the capacity of DBAP.
It's like they're picking up a city 1/2 the size of downtown Durham and setting it back down just south of downtown Raleigh. Keep in mind that's just the Kane/Malik portion. If you put that much development on the south end, downtown is going to expand south from the warehouse district. The definition of "downtown" will just have to grow a bit.
That’s great, someone tell the rail lines, creeks and highways to jump up out of the way!
1.5 million sf of Office Space
1000+ hotel rooms
1,750 residential units
125,000 sf of retail and restaurant space
20,000 seat soccer stadium
Compared to Downtown Durham it's about 1/2 the office space, 300+ more hotel rooms, 1/3 of the residential units, probably comparable retail, and a stadium that seats 2x the capacity of DBAP.
It's like they're picking up a city 1/2 the size of downtown Durham and setting it back down just south of downtown Raleigh. Keep in mind that's just the Kane/Malik portion. If you put that much development on the south end, downtown is going to expand south from the warehouse district. The definition of "downtown" will just have to grow a bit.
And what is the timeline to build this 1/2 a town and then have it fill-in between that and DT Raleigh to give it true "downtown" feel and cred.....10-20-30 years? Will MLS be happy with that? As of now Raleigh also has plans and goals to more intensely develop SW Raleigh from NCSU to around Rex-NCMA-PNC continuing to the I40 "border". Cary is complementing this by already developing their Eastern Gateway smack on the other side (including Fenton and office space zoned for up to 20+ stories). So, in that time frame, one could argue that the current site might very well be almost just as "urban".
And what is the timeline to build this 1/2 a town and then have it fill-in between that and DT Raleigh to give it true "downtown" feel and cred.....10-20-30 years? Will MLS be happy with that? As of now Raleigh also has plans and goals to more intensely develop SW Raleigh from NCSU to around Rex-NCMA-PNC continuing to the I40 "border". Cary is complementing this by already developing their Eastern Gateway smack on the other side (including Fenton and office space zoned for up to 20+ stories). So, in that time frame, one could argue that the current site might very well be almost just as "urban".
You can make any argument that you like. If they want it to be located in Raleigh it doesn't matter what happens with Fenton or Cary. If they want this level of development in proximity to downtown Raleigh they've got the only spot where it would be possible. If they want to own their stadium, that's probably not going to happen at WakeMed Soccer Park. If they want to integrate the WakeMed stadium into a mixed use development immediately surrounding the facility, they're going to need to buy the surrounding WakeMed parking lots and fields from Wake County. If they want visibility from the interstate, that's not going to happen at WakeMed Park. If they want a purpose built MLS stadium that's not going to happen at WakeMed soccer park. If they want to be 2 BRT stops from Union Station, that's not going to happen at WakeMed stadium.
This proposal is around 2x the size of Fenton, but I doubt it will take 2x as long to build. The timeline depends on the economy. Fenton is one of the slowest local development projects I've personally ever followed. I think in 10-15 years Penmarc could be a destination on par with what North Hills is today, which is about how long it took NH to get where it is. If the economy holds it could be less since Kane has many more resources than when it started NH, the slate is more blank than the NH site was, and his development momentum is off the charts.
As for crossing roads, tracks and streams, I'm not too concerned about it. Crossings will be made if people want to go from one side to the other. In most cities I've been to you take a taxi, bus, uber, or subway if you're going from one side of the city to the other. Plus they're going to put a tunnel under the tracks at West street, turn Rocky Branch into a feature at South Saunders, and redo the whole Southern Gateway as a City project. Downtown Raleigh has a tiny footprint right now, but it doesn't have to stay tiny.
I'm biased because it's a very short bike ride on a greenway for me to get to the Penmarc site. But objectively speaking, there appear to be many more hurdles to jump to turn WakeMed Soccer Park into a mixed use development surrounding a purpose built MLS soccer stadium.
It may not be walk-able TODAY. But Raleigh and DTR is growing. The next direction will be south. Having an anchor spot like this will encourage faster growth to the south.
You can see downtown from 440, so I am sure the downtown views will be fine. Outside of foliage blocking the view.
Plus, having a 20k+ outdoor venue will allow Raleigh to bring in more musical acts. No more driving to Walnut Creek.
Yep. It's a mile from Peace Street to South Street (which to me are the northern and southern boundaries of downtown proper today. It's about another mile south from there to I-40. So by laying claim to this area as "downtown" they have effectively doubled downtown's size from one square mile to two. To me, this is *definitely* a good thing.
Now, I want to see them apply downtown-caliber zoning to the entire area, from Lake Wheeler/Dix all the way to Blount/Hammond, and stitch the grid together (which already exists but is incomplete.)
Sorry if any of you live there and are attached to it, but between this, Dix, and the organic southward expansion of downtown, Fuller Heights and Caraleigh are tear down land now.
If we don't upzone, the neighborhood character and affordability will be lost no matter what. With no zoning changes, it will all be 1:1 single-family teardowns and rebuilds with giant houses like what we are seeing in the neighborhoods near Cameron Village. Instead of that, we should just blanket rezone the entire area for mixed use (varying from 5 to 40 stories) so that when things do inevitably get torn down, they can be replaced with something that actually deserves the title of downtown.
As Grumpycat would say, how about no! If some billionaire wants to build a complex for a game no one watches then he can spend his own money. As someone mentioned earlier this smell like Dell II, Electric Boogaloo. Or maybe the Music Man.
Those tax incentives are already in place as part of the hotel occupancy tax. Raleigh is receiving bids on where to spend the money. That's already been done. The "opportunity zones" is federal tax law to encourage growth in certain areas.
Literally all of this stuff is already completed. The question is if Malik/Kane receive any of the hotel incentive money.
1.5 million sf of Office Space
1000+ hotel rooms
1,750 residential units
125,000 sf of retail and restaurant space
20,000 seat soccer stadium
Compared to Downtown Durham it's about 1/2 the office space, 300+ more hotel rooms, 1/3 of the residential units, probably comparable retail, and a stadium that seats 2x the capacity of DBAP.
It's like they're picking up a city 1/2 the size of downtown Durham and setting it back down just south of downtown Raleigh. Keep in mind that's just the Kane/Malik portion. If you put that much development on the south end, downtown is going to expand south from the warehouse district. The definition of "downtown" will just have to grow a bit.
That's A LOT... would completely change the character of that area. I'd still say calling it "downtown would be a stretch... I forsee it being labelled as another "district" of the greater downtown area.
I'm all for another district... we already have "Midtown East" lol
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