Cary Town Hall Campus Redevelopment (Raleigh, Chapel Hill: chapel, lenders, how much)
Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, CaryThe Triangle Area
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I've been seeing references to this for a little while, and these are the first details to be shared publicly. Still very early in the concept phase, but Cary is imagining a complete redevelopment of the current town hall campus with building ranging up to 10 or even 15 stories tall. 18-acre campus plus the almost 10 acres nearby the town is in the process of acquiring for the new transit center. And they imagine broader redevelopment beyond that in the immediate vicinity.
Not sure how I feel about this. We really like the current Town Hall area... almost like a "secret park" behind it (between it and the ToC police HQ)......trees, gardens, art, water features. We have fond memories of taking the kids there when they were little....quaint and cute. Never a crowd, very peaceful. We still enjoy going there. Pro tip -they go all out with the decorations for the holidays (more before pandemic)...still... really cool. Check it out in the fall (Halloween-Thanksgiving)... pumpkin-palooza! Absolutely beautiful. I really really don't want it to turn into The Fenton. Speaking of Dah Fenton, why not just move "all this" to there then. They got plenty room to grow there still... only finishing phase I of what.... IV?? I believe it is already zoned for 20 stories - offices (between current mixed use and I40).
The buildings (Town Hall and Police HQ) appear modern and new-ish. Not sure when they were built... but they have aged very well. Insides look very nice too. Can't speak for the systems (HVAC, plumbing etc). I would think, relative to size, one of the nicest town civic campuses and facilities in the country. Would not mind working there at all.
The current transit center/train station also appears modern and new-ish. Why knock all this down... seems like a waste. Ok, ToC FD looks like they got the short end of the stick -with their little bungalow HQ next to Gerkins. So, throw them a bone maybe.. but tearing everything else down????
Is this purely a financial play/decision for the town to strike while the iron is hot.. with "sky high" DT Cary property prices? Does the town really need the space for employees? So many other employers decreasing office space d/t pandemic spurred WFH and flex working. Or.......maybe....that's exactly it. ToC doesn't need any office space anymore so might as well sell out and repurpose everything
Anyways, don't see this happening anytime soon d/t current economic "headwinds". This is a big "local" project and too much friction and risk for regional banks and developers with the interest rates and all. Not sure how much of an appetite there is now for office, retail, mixed use development.... for the people with money. After almost a decade of near 0% financing with cheap/free money (post great recession of 2008), people now see 5-7% as "crazy stupid high" (though we all know historically it is like ave. rate). Lenders and developers have safer bet with keeping their cash, cause they do have cash, parked in central banks where it is earing some decent interest now... virtually risk free. Wait until things slow down and cool off -this is what Fed wants, and we need, after all. Then when prices come down, and interest rates lower, you buy and work on developing.
Not sure how I feel about this. We really like the current Town Hall area... almost like a "secret park" behind it (between it and the ToC police HQ)......trees, gardens, art, water features. We have fond memories of taking the kids there when they were little....quaint and cute. Never a crowd, very peaceful. We still enjoy going there. Pro tip -they go all out with the decorations for the holidays (more before pandemic)...still... really cool. Check it out in the fall (Halloween-Thanksgiving)... pumpkin-palooza! Absolutely beautiful. I really really don't want it to turn into The Fenton. Speaking of Dah Fenton, why not just move "all this" to there then. They got plenty room to grow there still... only finishing phase I of what.... IV?? I believe it is already zoned for 20 stories - offices (between current mixed use and I40).
The buildings (Town Hall and Police HQ) appear modern and new-ish. Not sure when they were built... but they have aged very well. Insides look very nice too. Can't speak for the systems (HVAC, plumbing etc). I would think, relative to size, one of the nicest town civic campuses and facilities in the country. Would not mind working there at all.
The current transit center/train station also appears modern and new-ish. Why knock all this down... seems like a waste. Ok, ToC FD looks like they got the short end of the stick -with their little bungalow HQ next to Gerkins. So, throw them a bone maybe.. but tearing everything else down????
Is this purely a financial play/decision for the town to strike while the iron is hot.. with "sky high" DT Cary property prices? Does the town really need the space for employees? So many other employers decreasing office space d/t pandemic spurred WFH and flex working. Or.......maybe....that's exactly it. ToC doesn't need any office space anymore so might as well sell out and repurpose everything
Anyways, don't see this happening anytime soon d/t current economic "headwinds". This is a big "local" project and too much friction and risk for regional banks and developers with the interest rates and all. Not sure how much of an appetite there is now for office, retail, mixed use development.... for the people with money. After almost a decade of near 0% financing with cheap/free money (post great recession of 2008), people now see 5-7% as "crazy stupid high" (though we all know historically it is like ave. rate). Lenders and developers have safer bet with keeping their cash, cause they do have cash, parked in central banks where it is earing some decent interest now... virtually risk free. Wait until things slow down and cool off -this is what Fed wants, and we need, after all. Then when prices come down, and interest rates lower, you buy and work on developing.
Well... if no development is done at taxpayer expense:
I tend to agree regarding Town Hall Campus. It is lovely and we don't stroll the grounds often enough.
Nice quiet park-like setting, and a counterpart to the new downtown park which appears to be overdeveloped vs. natural. Just saw the article about the stand of Dawn Redwoods.
The depot? Certainly reasonable to develop up, particularly if TOC gains financially from the deal.
The fire dept plot?
Go for it, particularly if TOC benefits financially.
It seems pretty obvious at this point that Cary wants to be an urban city, not a suburb. I'm not sure how I really feel about that, but I'm glad we got here when we did.
It seems pretty obvious at this point that Cary wants to be an urban city, not a suburb. I'm not sure how I really feel about that, but I'm glad we got here when we did.
Developable suburban land in the Cary ETJ is being fully absorbed. At this point, adding density will contribute to growth.
And, to cash in on these very valuable prime parcels likely is not bad management.
Town Hall campus could be a sad over-development, however. IMO.
With plans for BRT and eventually commuter rail, it makes a ton of sense to make this a much denser hub for mixed-use. This definitely goes beyond what I was expecting though.
It seems pretty obvious at this point that Cary wants to be an urban city, not a suburb. I'm not sure how I really feel about that, but I'm glad we got here when we did.
Just thought this the other day as I drove by the mini city on the corner of Maynard and Chapel Hill Road.
This is all going to look like complete crap in 30 years.
The schools here cannot handle anymore growth and we are running out of room to build new ones.
Cary is running out of room to expand horizontally, so the proponents of continued growth are looking vertically. Raleigh has been on that page for 20 years now. Cary voters will have to decide if that's what they want.
Interesting that a new transportation center is foreseen. Either the current transportation center between N Academy St and N Harrison Av will prove to be too small or they're anxious to redevelop it. Many of the tracts between N Harrison Av and N West St ("Site C" on the RFQ map) are owned by Taylor Family Investment Co LLC.
Cary has been planning for quite some time to replace the transit center. They want a true multi-modal station that will accommodate train, BRT, regular buses, eventual commuter rail with park-and-ride, and more, and the current station area is much too small.
The new site was selected three years ago, and acquisition of the properties is underway.
One of the biggest issues is that the current platforms between Academy and Harrison are too short. Some Amtrak trains even have to pull forward a bit and stop twice. And both Harrison and Academy can get blocked for extended periods of time, which will only get worse as more trains are added over time. By shifting a block to the west, they get a parcel that can still access both train lines as they diverge but with enough room for platforms that are at least double the length of the current ones.
The platform at the new Raleigh station is 900 feet to avoid double-stops. A platform of that length on the NCRR in Cary would run from Harrison to roughly West... plenty of room without any vehicle or pedestrian crossings. A platform of that length on CSX would extend across West, but there are only 2 passenger trains a day on that line compared to what will soon be 10 on the NCRR line, not to mention whatever local trains come along.
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