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I think you are wrong. Its unfair to say that only blacks worked low paying jobs. Plenty of whites worked low paying jobs too. Both whites and blacks still work low paying jobs.
What is a low paying job in your definition? Surely you dont mean working at McDonalds.
Maybe mill and factory jobs? Ever taken a trip to a mill town in NC? Did you know this was once the back bone of America, the blue collar worker who worked those jobs and made a living for themselves and their families off of that pay. No, they didnt have alot of extra money, but it was enough to live and support their families.
I have a few questions regarding the construction industry in the Raleigh area. Are the majority of skilled construction workers (both residential and commerical) local Raleigh-area American residents who are making at least a half-decent wage in an attempt to support their families or are they transcient, low-paid workers? Anyone have a ball park estimate to the percentage of each?
If a Raleigh homeowner decides to have an addition built on to his/her home and they hire a local, small-business contractor who has 3-4 employees to work on the project, how many of the workers are local American carpenters and how many are low-paid non-American workers?
My husband has 20 years experience as a both a residential and commercial carpenter and while lower wages are a fact of life in the industry when moving from the northeast and that is acceptable as a trade off for moving to a better area, we'd like to get a realistic picture of the likelihood of him making half-decent pay with a local contractor or company. Anyone know from experience, what the rate of pay range would be?
Thanks in advance to anyone who provides input.
I work for a building supply distributor in the area, and its pretty common that most of the "laborers" are going to be foreigners, usually the supervisors and foreman will be your local american carpenters. All you have to do is drive through one subdivision that under construction, or one large job site, like the convention center downtown Raleigh.. and you'll see.
I don't know how well they are paid, I know we are paying our foreign experienced laborers about $10 to tote sheetrock and stock job sites.
jbognar, after piecing all my points apart, can you dispute one of them? No, you stated your opinion.
What? My opinion? I was using YOUR OWN sources of information to dispute your points (the UNC-CH study that you keep mentioning). How is that my opinion?
To recap your points...
1. True, but one-sided. You neglect to mention that they also pay $756M in taxes.
2. True, but irrelevant information. Nobody disputes that there isn't a huge number of illegal immigrants here.
3. True, but irrelevant information. Nobody disputes that there isn't a huge number of illegal immigrants here.
4. True, but irrelevant information. Nobody disputes that there isn't a huge number of illegal immigrants here.
5. Not sure what a poll is supposed to prove. A recent CNN poll shows that 64% of Americans believe that extraterrestrials exist. Does that prove the existence of extraterrestrials?
And I don't know why you bring up this poll anyway...it actually HURTs your argument. If 46% percent of "US born hispanics" (i.e. not even including LEGAL imigrants who would be MORE likely to answer yes) believe that IIs don't help the economy, then that means 54% DO believe they help the economy. So not only are polls useless, but you're citing polls that go against your own argument!
6a. False. Neglects the fact that IIs pay $754M in taxes.
6b. False. Neglects the fact that IIs pay $754M in taxes.
6c. TRUE. THIS POINT WE AGREE ON!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina_native
Im actually trying to figure out how you think that most if not all illegals pay taxes, (and pay taxes I mean the whole thing like Social Security as well), and are benefiting this country in any way.
Social security is an interesting point. Many illegal immigrants use false ID to get a job, and therefore DO pay into social security. But they can never hope to get any benefit from it when they retire. They're actually helping keep the social security system solvent, which is supposed to go bankrupt around 2030.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina_native
Illegals are not American citizens, yet they use social services provided by the US and cost us the following:
1. In 2002, $2.5 Billion in Medicaid, $1.9 Billion in food assistance programs, and $2.2 Billion for the UNINSURED illegals. These are costs.
2. Center for Immigration Studies found the following in 2004:
Illegal alien households use $2,700 more in services per household than they pay in taxes, a $10.4 Billion deficit in the federal budget.
Agreed....they cost us more in taxes than they pay in taxes. But not by much. $10.4 billion? The federal budget is $2.6 TRILLION! And the UNC-CH study that you keep bringing up even says that IIs add $9 billion to the North Carolina economy alone.
You cannot simply look at the costs alone and not the benefits of illegal immigration (like lower costs for services for the rest of us, and low inflation, and increases in worker productivity). You're making a one-sided argument, and ignoring any data that doesn't fit your argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina_native
I really could type on and on but you can search the internet if you want, I look at pro-immigration websites too but the only information provided is a play on emotions debate
From everything that I've read (and I've never been to a pro-immigration website btw), here are the facts as I see them....
1. There are lots of illegal immigrants here.
2. The influx of illegal immigrants is worsening the overcrowding situation in schools. But they make up a minority of new students entering the schools, so you cannot simply blame them for the whole problem.
3. They're depressing the wages of low-income earners.
4. The statement "illegal immigrants don't pay taxes" is blatantly wrong.
5. The statement "illegal immigrants don't pay their fair share of taxes" is debatable, and I've seen data that supports both sides of the issue.
6. There is not a legal way to get rid of all illegal immigrants.
7. Our economy is hooked on labor from illegal immigrants. If we were to ship them all out tomorrow, our economy would collapse. It's like a bad heroin addiction....if you simply eliminate the heroin cold turkey, the patient is likely to die.
I think you are wrong. Its unfair to say that only blacks worked low paying jobs. Plenty of whites worked low paying jobs too. Both whites and blacks still work low paying jobs.
What is a low paying job in your definition? Surely you dont mean working at McDonalds.
Maybe mill and factory jobs? Ever taken a trip to a mill town in NC? Did you know this was once the back bone of America, the blue collar worker who worked those jobs and made a living for themselves and their families off of that pay. No, they didnt have alot of extra money, but it was enough to live and support their families.
You really have no clue do you about the working conditions Blacks had before the Civil Rights movement? It's not about freaking McDonald's.
You are not dealing with the the issue of who had the traditional, low paying, low status jobs in American society.
It USED to be the Blacks, because of segregation, long before McDonald's moved out Des Plaines, Illinois. Now, that the civil rights movement has provided greater opportunities for those that choose to step up and take advantage of them...some other group has to fill the niche. This, so far, as been Mexicans, mostly in the country illegally, but also many here legally, because some here refuse to understand that many Mexican nationals and first generation Mexican Americans are here just as legally as you and I.
And why are the mill jobs leaving the US? LOL...it's not the Mexicans here that are here causing that problem. It's NAFTA and the American corporations that see that they can move to Mexico pay folks 20$ a week and one meal a day of beans rather then a going wage in the US. The industry I work in is slowly moving to Mexico, it's a time of HIGH stress for my husband and I (we work in the same facility) and not single problem is caused by Mexican immigraints, without or without documents that are living in North Carolina.
Get your bloody fact straight before you go off blaming a scapegoat group.
Last edited by Desdemona123; 03-11-2007 at 05:36 PM..
Reason: to change an 'e' to an 's'
desdemona123, I have my facts straight, cant help if you cant deal with the truth.
I guess what you are trying to say is that only blacks worked low paying jobs until recently? Wrong. I really dont know what else to tell you because I used to work a low paying job too.
The mill/factory/construction jobs are affected by illegals, my brother worked in construction and so did many of my friends. There are no raises and benefits in these jobs anymore, illegals depress wages. Yes these jobs still exist in America. I know. If you dont know this, well I just educated you.
desdemona123, I have my facts straight, cant help if you cant deal with the truth.
I guess what you are trying to say is that only blacks worked low paying jobs until recently? Wrong. I really dont know what else to tell you because I used to work a low paying job too.
The mill/factory/construction jobs are affected by illegals, my brother worked in construction and so did many of my friends. There are no raises and benefits in these jobs anymore, illegals depress wages. Yes these jobs still exist in America. I know. If you dont know this, well I just educated you.
You didn't address any of the points I made, but simply parrotted the same 'mexicans are the cause of all our problems' party line.
Come back when you want to talk about the issue, not just scapegoat a segment of the population.
"There is not a legal way to get rid of all illegal immigrants"
I cant shake my head enough in response to this. You can deport an illegal immigrant. And if you say wait, how do we identify who is illegal then I ask:
so why is the govenment currently allowing illegals to enter the country so easily if they want to really deport them....because they know that they dont want to deport them.
I am really scared in terms of us justifying people from other countries breaking our laws and us defending them ONLY if we someone makes money off it. OUR LAWS SHOULD NOT BE SOLD!
Have any of you read the stories on the 2 border patrol agents that are serving over 10 yrs for shooting an illegal alien smuggling drugs over the border in the butt (he is fine)? Does anyone think it was right that the alien was given COMPLETE amnesty for the crime he commited BECAUSE he testified against our agents (which is what put them in jail)?
Also is someone trying to reason that what the illegals are doing is OK because of our black history? I cant believe the stretches that make take to defend illegals.
i guess that if we get enough people hooked on crack, that we should ignore crack dealers....after all we "need" it.
USA: for sale to the highest bidder (or lowest worker)
Also is someone trying to reason that what the illegals are doing is OK because of our black history? I cant believe the stretches that make take to defend illegals.
You are not reading the entire thread are you?
1. Someone said that there was no need for cheap labour before Mexicans came into this country.
2. This was countered with the history lesson, that before there were many Mexicans, legal and otherwise, coming into the country and before the Civil Rights movement, Blacks often did the same jobs, for just as low wage. The 'need' for cheap labour has always been around, it's just a different group filling the niche.
That is a pretty simple thing if you bothered to pay attention to what was being said, rather then let your hatred of Hispanics spill over.
And yes, there is no legal way to round up all Hispanics and Mexicans and deport them...many are here legally and just many of them have been born in this country. During the 1890s there were a few calls for all the Irish to be rounded up and sent packing...this is not much different.
1. Someone said that there was no need for cheap labour before Mexicans came into this country.
2. This was countered with the history lesson, that before there were many Mexicans, legal and otherwise, coming into the country and before the Civil Rights movement, Blacks often did the same jobs, for just as low wage. The 'need' for cheap labour has always been around, it's just a different group filling the niche.
That is a pretty simple thing if you bothered to pay attention to what was being said, rather then let your hatred of Hispanics spill over.
And yes, there is no legal way to round up all Hispanics and Mexicans and deport them...many are here legally and just many of them have been born in this country. During the 1890s there were a few calls for all the Irish to be rounded up and sent packing...this is not much different.
You know, I have to shake my head at this because it is crazy to say that blacks were the only ones working low paying jobs. I guess there have never been poor whites in this country? The magic wand was waved and **poof** hispanics replaced all the blacks and invisible whites
You miss ducters point. If an entire prison of 5,000 inmates escaped into town, you would be one of those saying, "well we cant do anything about it, most of them got jobs in the town and are back with their families. We cant round them all up cause we dont know who is who."
Been watching tv or reading the paper and seeing ICE raids on these work places that hire illegals? Not that hard.
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