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I walked across the street to talk to the neighbor outside. She told me the seller and her husband had built the house in 1969 as their retirement home. Shortly thereafter, their daughter and her husband had been killed in a car accident, leaving a young granddaughter.
The grandparents took in the granddaughter and raised her in the home. Now widowed and in her 90s, the grandmother was being taken in by the granddaughter and her husband to live with them.
So, the letter I wrote spoke of our two daughters, ages 3 and 6, and how much we loved the home and the neighborhood and thought it would be the perfect place to raise two girls, where they could climb trees, play in the woods and observe the wildlife.
Austin-steve, the situation you described is exactly why I wouldn't read such a letter. I find what you described as horrendous and manipulative - playing on the emotions of an elderly person for your personal gain and for the purpose of harming the 90 year old's welfare. Shame on you.
It's quite a bit different than simply negotiating a price that you would be willing to pay and she would be willing to accept. Instead, you went beyond that, dug up her personal business and manipulated the facts and used it against her. I certainly hope that you were not a Realtor at that time because I view the actions you described as unethical . . . and Realtors may wonder why the public as a whole has such a low opinion of the profession.
Otherwise, holy cow. I started this thread over three years ago and all of a sudden it reappeard.
Austin-steve, the situation you described is exactly why I wouldn't read such a letter. I find what you described as horrendous and manipulative - playing on the emotions of an elderly person for your personal gain and for the purpose of harming the 90 year old's welfare. Shame on you.
Well, you continue to remain under the false assumption that the only thing that matters to people selling homes is the money. As I said, for many sellers, the selling of a home represents much more than the amount of net proceeds they receive. It's the closing of a chapter in their lives and many do in fact place value on what they perceive as a happy ending. If you're unable to comprehend these emotional complexities or how and why they come about, you'll continue to not understand why some sellers do in fact want to know about their buyers.
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It's quite a bit different than simply negotiating a price that you would be willing to pay and she would be willing to accept. Instead, you went beyond that, dug up her personal business and manipulated the facts and used it against her. I certainly hope that you were not a Realtor at that time because I view the actions you described as unethical . . . and Realtors may wonder why the public as a whole has such a low opinion of the profession.
Wow, your view of how things work is really distorted.
She had 4 other offers to pick from, some for much higher. Everything in the letter was true. I do have two daughters.
We also stated in the letter that we were experienced buyers, fully aware of the sort of inspection items that would come up in a 1969 home, and that we would not not-pick or complain about small inspection items. We kept that promise. The home did in fact produce an "ugly inspection", and it had an 30 year old septic system. We didn't try to renegotiate or ask for ANY repairs.
Newbie buyers would have freaked out and been frightened by some of that stuff, which is why we raised the issue in the letter. We also stated that we would continue with the purchase even if the home failed to appraise for the contract price (which was a possibility given the frenzy of bids).
The seller's agent was smart enough to know all of this too, and discussed it with the seller.
End the end, the transaction closed on time exactly as it was supposed to and the seller was very pleased with how everything went. This is what a well written piece of communication to a seller can accomplish when a buyer is competing against other bids. Even when competing bids are not in place, it never hurts for a buyer to communicate to a seller anything that might give the seller confidence in the buyer and help the deal move forward.
But you're smarter than the rest of us, so when you sell, go ahead and throw your buyer letters away so you won't be tricked by any voodoo magic the words on the page might contain. God forbid you get hypnotized and placed under a spell by some information from the people who want to buy your house.
No need for a smart-aleck reply, austin-steve. The fact remains that, unless you're a qualified psychotherapist or psychologist employed by the seller, you're not qualified or empowered to act for the seller's psychological best interests. You're just using your salemsan tactics to manipulate the situation and to stick it to the seller for your personal gain.
To sugar coat it any other way is begging the true issue. Simply call it what it is. It's good salesmanip - nothing more and nothing less. Be proud of that. Be proud that you have the skills, abilities, desire and knowledge to get the best deal. In this case, the best deal was for you and likely not the seller. It wouldn't make sense any other way.
Again, that's why I don't care about any letter, especially from a salesman in an industry with as poor an ethical reputation amoungst the public as the real estate sales profession. It's not written to gain me anything. It's just written to gain the author something at the seller's expense. That's why I will always make my own desicision based on my experience and tempered by the advice from someone hired to represent my interests, not (in this case) your interests.
No need for a smart-aleck reply, austin-steve. The fact remains that, unless you're a qualified psychotherapist or psychologist employed by the seller, you're not qualified or empowered to act for the seller's psychological best interests. You're just using your salemsan tactics to manipulate the situation and to stick it to the seller for your personal gain.
To sugar coat it any other way is begging the true issue. Simply call it what it is. It's good salesmanip - nothing more and nothing less. Be proud of that. Be proud that you have the skills, abilities, desire and knowledge to get the best deal. In this case, the best deal was for you and likely not the seller. It wouldn't make sense any other way.
Again, that's why I don't care about any letter, especially from a salesman in an industry with as poor an ethical reputation amoungst the public as the real estate sales profession. It's not written to gain me anything. It's just written to gain the author something at the seller's expense. That's why I will always make my own desicision based on my experience and tempered by the advice from someone hired to represent my interests, not (in this case) your interests.
How were the Seller's interests not represented in Steve's story?
How were the Seller's interests not represented in Steve's story? The answer is: The letter from his certainly didn't represent her best interests. That's the job of the agent hired by the seller, not the buyer's agent or, in this case, the buyer.
The answer is simple. He wasn't empowered or obligated to represent their interests. He was the buyer. His sole purpose was to represent his own interests, nothing more and nothing less, and that's exactly what happened. He was able to manipulate the situation such that the elderly seller was paid less for her house than she was going to get from another buyer - in spite of what he conjectured or imagined about the other offers or how the other offers might have turned out.
Let's remember what the issue revoles around. It's about writing a letter to the seller and his distaste of my position that such a letter is something that I wouldn't read. I still hold that position and always will hold that position.
Such a letter to the seller, from the buyer, is not done for the buyer's best interests. It can't be viewed any other way. It's done solely for the benefit of the person writing the letter in an attempt to manipulate the situation. It doesn't make any other sense and to try to represent it any other fashion is just another example of twisting the truth.
The letter does nothing but provide an opportunity for the author to twists facts, attempt to solicit an emotional response from the seller that would benefit the author (buyer), and gain a result that would not have otherwise happened. It does nothing more and nothing less.
Beyond that, it's also an attempt to circumvent the authority vested in the representative the seller hired - their real estate agent. An agent is often hired for a variety of reasons, one of which is to employ their expertise and another is to isolate the seller from dealing directly with the buyers.
If a seller wanted to deal directly with the buyers, they could have done so without hiring an agent and paying them the full rate. If a seller has to deal directly with the buyer, as when they're subjected to manipulative and questionable letters from them, then the agent wouldn't be doing their full job nor would they be worth the full payment.
So . . . "That's my story and I'm sticking to it!"
Garth, it's not always only about the money for every seller. Sometimes there is value for the seller know the buyer will love the property like they did. Sometimes emotional value becomes cash value.
Such a letter to the seller, from the buyer, is not done for the buyer's best interests. It can't be viewed any other way. It's done solely for the benefit of the person writing the letter in an attempt to manipulate the situation. It doesn't make any other sense and to try to represent it any other fashion is just another example of twisting the truth.
{Sigh}, OK, one more try.
A good buyer's agent and buyer will seek to find out if the seller has any special needs or if there are any terms and conditions that will make an offer more attractive to a seller. Sometimes there are logistical needs, sometimes there are timing issues and sometimes there are emotional matters. Before writing an offer, I always talk to a seller's agent and ask "is there anything the seller needs or anything we should know about seller's circumstance that would help us write a better offer?"
Often there is, but it's not stated in the MLS listing because the listing agent doesn't want to reduce the chances of receiving an offer by making the seller seem picky or ridiculous. For example, the seller may really, really want a lease-back, but if the agent writes "seller requires 30 day lease back" in the MLS listing, good luck getting an offer. We have to ask and learn more, and it often benefits the seller, especially when the buyer is agnostic on the terms and conditions that would solve the seller's problem.
Here are some samples of things I've seen buyers write in a letter/communication to a seller along with an offer (abbreviated):
- Buyer is flexible on closing date and can close anytime between 3 to 8 weeks from offer acceptance. (in response to finding out seller's new home construction has been delayed and the builder doesn't have a firm completion date, thus saving the seller from moving twice)
- Buyer is willing to provide seller up to a 30 day lease-back if seller so desires. (same issue, when buyer is flexible, of saving the seller from having to move twice. Sometimes buyers actually prefer to delay the move because they are paying rent still, so this can be a win/win)
- Buyer will adopt and care for seller's dog Maggie. (Long, emotional saga, but the short of it was that the Seller was being moved to assisted care and none of the family wanted the dog)
- Buyer will, at buyers expense, drive seller's 3rd vehicle to seller's new home in San Diego. (multiple offers, found out seller was going to be flying back to retrieve 3rd car, buyer offered to drive it instead)
.. I could list a bunch more that I've seen over the years, especially when it's a seller's market and multiple offers are common.
We once had a seller distraught over whether the new buyer would take proper care of a Magnolia tree seller had planted 8 years earlier in remembrance of seller's dead mother. Buyer wrote a heartfelt letter with a solemn promise to cherish and care for the tree, which seller very much appreciated.
The point is, selling the house is often just one of many things a seller is dealing with during a move. There are often many other problems that need solving and over which a seller is fretting. Those of us who've been in real estate 20+ years have seen a lot of these scenarios, many where an emotional need is actually far and above more important than any extra few thousand dollars a seller might get from a sterile offer with no communication attached.
But Garth, I'll say it again, you're obviously smarter than the rest of us, so when you sell, go ahead and throw your buyer letters away so you won't be tricked by any voodoo magic the words on the page might contain.
. . . and Steve, I'll try to say it as succinctly as possible. Most of the items you list, with the possible exception of the Magnolia tree issue, do not belong in a letter. They belong as part of the contract and exclusively in the contract as part of the negotiations. They are contractual obligations or use restrictions on the property.
If they're in a letter and not listed in a contract, it can become a problem in enforcing them. It's clear when they're part of the contract, but if they're in a "letter" that's included seperately from the contract they may not be written correctly, introduce vagueness to the process, open the issues up to intrepretation and may require litigation to enforce if they're of any value.
Was that your intention? Was it your intention that, knowing there was little intrinsic monetary value to the listed items, that there was little chance they were ever be litigated if they were not completed, therefore their true purpose was solely to manipulate the transaction with no cost to the buyer? I really don't think that you would think that way - at least I hope you wouldn't think that way.
Otherwise, I don't see you rejecting the observation that in the case of the 90 year old, she sold for less than she could have received. That's not your fault. You were looking out for your best interests. However, by being taken in by your "letter" with issues about your own family, she was manipulated and harmed. She received less for her asset to assist her with her future expenses in an era of her life where she has limited to absent future earning potential.
Again, it wasn't your fault. You were just doing what you should have been doing for your own family, but don't try to represent it as anything other than what it was - a good manipulative negotiation tactic.
That's why I have legitmate standing in refusing such a thing when I'm selling a house. I don't want to hear from the other side, except about legitmate issues that affect my sale. Anything else is solely made for the purpose of manipulating the situation to my detriment.
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Originally Posted by austin-steve
But Garth, I'll say it again, you're obviously smarter than the rest of us, so when you sell, go ahead and throw your buyer letters away so you won't be tricked by any voodoo magic the words on the page might contain.
Steve
. . . and steve, please stop being condescending, insulting and demeaning. It doesn't reflect well on you and takes away from your arguments that may have some legitmacy for some people. Your demeaning reference to "voodoo magic" and self-serving intelligence comments only reflect your true motivations when you write your letters to the sellers outside of the negotiations and contract.
In the end, you will conduct your business as you see fit. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't break the law or try to pass your actions off for anything other than what they are. In the meantime, I would hope that you would also realize that others may not want to play the game with you and that shouldn't make them subject to ridicule. It's really not a nice thing to do.
Finally, I'll say it again. Anything having to do with the purchase of the house belongs in the contract and nowhere else. Letters outside of the contract have no bearing on the negotiaions and are designed simply to manipulate the seller to harm them and circumvent their hired representative. That was your purpose, which you admitted to, and I can't see it viewed it any other way.
Finally, I'll say it again. Anything having to do with the purchase of the house belongs in the contract and nowhere else. Letters outside of the contract have no bearing on the negotiaions and are designed simply to manipulate the seller to their harm and circumvent their hired representative.
Duh. The letter expresses the buyer's willingness or intent to do something. Of course if it's a contractual item it goes in the final contract. But it can't go into the contract until it's decided upon. For example, once a seller knows a buyer is willing to do an extended closing date, the seller might pick a specific closing date that will go into the final accepted contract.
Informational items, such as letting a seller know more about a buyer in general, buyers qualifications and willingness to be flexible about certain points, don't go in a contract and thus are better conveyed in communication that accompanies the contract, such as a letter.
Since you never intend to read such a letter, under any circumstance, since it can, according to you, only harm you and benefit the buyer, because, I can only assume, the letter has some sort of insidious power to influence you into making a bad decision, you won't ever need to burden yourself with doing so. Maybe your agent can read it and just tell you what it says instead.
We don't have buyers write a letter on every deal. Most don't require it and communication between the agents can suffice. But on certain deals, it provdes sellers with the kind of information they value whether you think it "hurts" them or not.
Steve
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