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Wonder if anyone has any ideas about this situation:
We are in the process of selling our home, and during the buyer inspections, it was discovered that the third floor finished space that was done by the people we bought it from was done without any building permits. It appears that our seller obtained a permit to expand the septic system, as the home was not permitted for the extra bathroom, and on this permit, it says the '5th bedroom installed illegally; right on the permit. This permit expired and the septic was never upgraded. On the disclosure statement it just says that septic is working adequately.
We are obviously horrified that our inspector didn't pick up on this, and didn't request a separate septic inspection (maybe we should have known - or should our realtor have known?). Our buyers are requesting a hefty credit toward repairs as our closing date is imminent, which under the circumstances is reasonable as we really don't know what it would take to upgrade septic and get the room to code (maybe nothing, maybe upgraded HVAC).
Given that we have this expired permit with our sellers' name on it, suggesting that they knew perfectly well that they should have obtained permits to get this room/bathroom installed (wife was also a designer of kitchens/baths), should we seek legal action against them for the cost of this credit? They called the room a bonus room - our agent called it a bedroom.
Thanks in advance for any advice - it is such a sad situation....
I don't think it is the responsibility of the inspector to verify permits. I've never had a septic system so I don't know what goes in to that, but I assume you have an inspection done that tells you if there are any problems.
Your buyer agent should have recommended a septic inspection. They also should have recommended that you go and pull the permits for the house. That is due diligence 101.
The standard contract in my area compels a septic inspection unless both parties agree otherwise. In my area, the expense for a septic inspection is borne by the seller.
Having said this, there is no certainty the the septic inspecter will compare and contrast septic size versus the actual # of bedrooms.
Most agents in my area do not pull septic permits, regardless of which side of the transaction they represent. Most agents do however recommend buyers do so.
Defining a room as something other than a bedroom to avoid expansion of the existing septic or in some cases a complete replacement is not uncommon. It all depends on the municipal folk who signed off, assuming any of the work is permitted to begin with.
Contact a real estate attorney to determine if it make any sense to go back to the people who sold you the home. They may or may not have made a representation that all work had been permitted and we don't know how long ago that was or the local laws/practices in your area.
Most home inspectors are not all inclusive. Reading their typical disclaimers their inspection is very limited. They don't inspect HVAC systems - you need a HVAC contractor. They don't inspect fireplaces, chimneys, etc - you need a chimney sweep for that. etc. They also don't do a permit search.
Frankly, I don't know that much about septic systems but assume - like a HVAC system, fireplace, plumbing, etc. any home inspector would not do a inspection of the septic.
If the people you bought the home from had their name on the permit with the statement that an area did not have a permit - they knew. However, it's questionable if that was a material defect. It's hard to know without knowing the local code and standards. But it would be to my understanding that adding even just a 5th bedroom would require the septic system be upgraded.
Frankly, if your closing is imminent - just do what you need to do to get it closed! Give your buyers the credit they are requesting. Frankly, if you don't you will need to upgrade the septic system and obtain a compliance permit for the bathroom. Obtaining the compliance permit may or may not be a big deal - we just don't know. Therefore, it's best to get it transaction closed. I assume your buyers know about the permit situtation and the septic system - as they are seeking the credit - so you may close with clean hands.
After the closing it may be worth a phone call to a real estate attorney. Depending on the length of time you have owned the home, your state laws, etc. - an attorney will be able to tell you if there is a case against the people you bought the home from and/or the title insurance company. Frankly, I wouldn't hold my breath - I question if there will be anything there - but it's worth a phone call/ consultation.
Best wishes.
Most home inspectors are not all inclusive. Reading their typical disclaimers their inspection is very limited. They don't inspect HVAC systems - you need a HVAC contractor. They don't inspect fireplaces, chimneys, etc - you need a chimney sweep for that. etc. They also don't do a permit search.
Frankly, I don't know that much about septic systems but assume - like a HVAC system, fireplace, plumbing, etc. any home inspector would not do a inspection of the septic.
If the people you bought the home from had their name on the permit with the statement that an area did not have a permit - they knew. However, it's questionable if that was a material defect. It's hard to know without knowing the local code and standards. But it would be to my understanding that adding even just a 5th bedroom would require the septic system be upgraded.
Frankly, if your closing is imminent - just do what you need to do to get it closed! Give your buyers the credit they are requesting. Frankly, if you don't you will need to upgrade the septic system and obtain a compliance permit for the bathroom. Obtaining the compliance permit may or may not be a big deal - we just don't know. Therefore, it's best to get it transaction closed. I assume your buyers know about the permit situtation and the septic system - as they are seeking the credit - so you may close with clean hands.
After the closing it may be worth a phone call to a real estate attorney. Depending on the length of time you have owned the home, your state laws, etc. - an attorney will be able to tell you if there is a case against the people you bought the home from and/or the title insurance company. Frankly, I wouldn't hold my breath - I question if there will be anything there - but it's worth a phone call/ consultation.
Best wishes.
In order to inspect the septic they pump all the goo out and then look at the tank. They also look at the drainfield. Out here they typically pull the permits for the septic.
How old is the house? Septic inspection is always a given where I grew up on LI because homes were built in the 60s 70s when they used to dig a hole, line it with cinder blocks and call it a cesspool... They could shift, cave-in, have all sorts of issues - people have fallen in them and died... You always want to know where it is before you go driving a truck across your lawn.
Upgrading to an actual septic tank is very expensive. So you have to always have a company out to specifically inspect just that.
Thanks for all the helpful replies - sharing your time and wisdom is greatly appreciated!
The house was built in the late 80's. The septic has been inspected and pumped out - it is functioning fine, but apparently doesn't meet the standards for the number of bathrooms in the house, after the extra bedroom/bath was added.
Wonder if anyone has any ideas about this situation:
We are in the process of selling our home, and during the buyer inspections, it was discovered that the third floor finished space that was done by the people we bought it from was done without any building permits. It appears that our seller obtained a permit to expand the septic system, as the home was not permitted for the extra bathroom, and on this permit, it says the '5th bedroom installed illegally; right on the permit. This permit expired and the septic was never upgraded. On the disclosure statement it just says that septic is working adequately.
I would expect that you are referring to the seller who actually applied for the permit and not any contractor they were using? If that is the case then, along with the seller's profession you described below, I would expect they were acting as a General Contractor and overseeing their own sub-contractors. If so then they should be fully aware of what is required for the entire job, including all necessary permits and the process to finalize/close them. When they applied for the initial permit they demonstrated they knew how and the local Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) will generally provide various sources of information on the permitting process along with a handout or additional information on the permit paperwork themselves.
We are obviously horrified that our inspector didn't pick up on this, and didn't request a separate septic inspection (maybe we should have known - or should our realtor have known?). Our buyers are requesting a hefty credit toward repairs as our closing date is imminent, which under the circumstances is reasonable as we really don't know what it would take to upgrade septic and get the room to code (maybe nothing, maybe upgraded HVAC).
In your later post you stated "doesn't meet the standards for the number of bathrooms in the house". Who made that determination and what did they use as a required reference for it? Make sure that you check this out as it could always be an opinion of the person stating that instead of based on actual requirements at the time the expansion was performed. Not to defend your seller but possibly they too realized a septic expansion was not necessary and just allowed the permit to expire without closing it.
If the case was that the system met current requirements then your original Inspector might not have been concerned about it. However, a "Full" septic inspection to determine the entire systems integrity does require that any tanks be pumped, hosed down and checked. That is generally well beyond a standard home inspection, would be a large additional fee, and most likely require a licensed septic maintenance/pumping company to perform. I perform limited septic inspections and make sure the client is aware of the need for pumping. This is also one of the "dreaded" annotations in the inspection report.
As for the HVAC issue there are so many variables involved of what is required to properly size and configure a unit that it would take proper calculations by a trained HVAC Tech to determine this. Building codes have only generally required that:
Quote:
303.8 Required heating.
When the winter design temperature in Table R301.2(1) is below 60°F (16 °C), every dwelling unit shall be provided with heating facilities capable of maintaining a minimum room temperature of 68°F (20 °C) at a point 3 feet (914 mm) above the floor and 2 feet (610 mm) from exterior walls in all habitable rooms at the design temperature. The installation of one or more portable space heaters shall not be used to achieve compliance with this section.
Unless your local AHJ, or State, had different rules at the time then these are the general building codes for required heating and cooling. It is interesting to note that the building codes do not have a requirement for cooling at all, other than if installed there are other requirements for installation to be met. The other installation requirements do not necessarily revolve around performance issues of actual cooling capability either.
Given that we have this expired permit with our sellers' name on it, suggesting that they knew perfectly well that they should have obtained permits to get this room/bathroom installed (wife was also a designer of kitchens/baths), should we seek legal action against them for the cost of this credit? They called the room a bonus room - our agent called it a bedroom.
Obviously you can seek legal action if you can prove, or provide reasonable proof, that your seller knew of the issue and did not disclose it. Before you hire an Attorney I would say to research the septic requirements at the time you purchased the home, as well as the permitting process for additions and any required septic expansions to meet them. Also look at what it is going to cost you just to close the deal. Attorneys make very good hourly wages and something of this nature would definitely eat up a lot of Attorney billable hours. Then ask yourself is it, and all the aggravation with it, worth the fight?
Thanks in advance for any advice - it is such a sad situation....
Answers and thoughts above. Also keep in mind that in any in depth legal action the only one that wins are the Attorneys (no disrespect intended to Attorneys).
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