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How many of you non "real esate agents" have ever heard of "procuring cause" in any buy/sell situation?
Is it not them "real sales agents" arguing over other peoples money?
Is it no wonder "real estate agents" are not "trusted" by most?
As a buyer/seller do I care how the "real estate agents" (the sharks) split the money as long as "I" (buyer or seller) get what I want at the price I want?
I agree that many buyers don't understand "procuring cause" and for the most part don't need to. One of the issues, and reasons for these rules/laws, is that there are buyers out there that will have an agent spend many, many hours helping them view and select a property. Then when they find something they like, they have a friend/relative/discount broker make the offer and get the compensation for the deal.
The agent they used only gets paid for their time, effort, and expertise in helping a buyer when the buyer uses the agent to make and offer and close the deal. So no, they aren't fighting over other people's money. They are fighting for fair compensation for the work they do. Wouldn't you hate working really hard at your job, having someone else take credit, then having them get your paycheck? Sorta the same thing here.
As far as the dual agency thing, if you didn't want to use the listing agent to represent you, you should not have asked them to show you property. Open Houses are an exception since they are open to everyone and you are not using the agent's separate work time to view the property.
You were talking about listing agents and procuring cause so I commented on procuring cause and agents.
This makes no sense in response. What are you talking about?
Talking about what is in the OP. Listing agent showed the property and has procuring cause. Redfin is asking them to sign a release giving up procuring cause. The listing actually belongs to the listing broker, so wouldn't it be up to that broker then?
Thanks everyone for the education. After reading all your postings, I sent a reply note to the listing agent. Lesson learned on my end is to say " We will select an independent agent if we decide to put an offer on this home". I also benefitted from your reminders that this is simply a business transaction, about money. In this case at least, the offer turned out to be as important as extra commission to the agent.
Here's the email I sent and reply we received... now of course we need to see how the offer negotiation is handled!
Happy Holidays everone and thanks again
OP
Sent: Fri, Dec 16, 2011 9:26 pm
Subject: Re: your offer
Hi xxxx
We certainly regret the awkwardness of this situation. I'm glad we are working through this now. In this environment I'm sure every dollar of commission is important. Here's our view of where we are- -
Over the course of months, we have used Redfin to identify properties that interest us, and have also contacted listing agents directly to show us a property when it was more efficient for us. We also attended open houses, which is how we first encountered xxxx. Like you, we made some assumptions - -we assumed that listing agents were paid by the seller to show their homes. Separately, we were never presented with an agency disclosure or any other representation information, nor did we request it - we assumed you did not care how we did an offer, only THAT we did an offer on one of your listings.
There is no doubt that you guys corner the market for listings in xxxx - -but we do plan to use Redfin to manage our side of the transaction. We appreciate your offer of dual agency, but the concept is fraught with conflict of interest and just makes us uncomfortable. I'm sure you can appreciate that we are preapproved and have a reasonable offer ready to submit - - but our agent won't proceed until you indicate your approval. Could you send a note back?
I hope the detailed estimate I sent from XXXX on repair work for your seller at xxxx will be helpful. XXXX promises his estimate by Monday. Whether or
not we move to an offer on XXX, I will gladly forward his estimate to you.
and then the reply we got back:
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: your offer
Thank you for your reply. I understand and respect your thoughts on dual agency. I left xxx a message earlier today and ask if an email would be sufficient stating our intentions not to claim procuring cause. I haven't heard back from him yet. If that works for him then we can present the offer this weekend. Let me know if you hear back from xxx.
Good. I'm glad they found a way to work this out for you, though as the listing agent I don't think I would have done it this way.
Talking about what is in the OP. Listing agent showed the property and has procuring cause. Redfin is asking them to sign a release giving up procuring cause. The listing actually belongs to the listing broker, so wouldn't it be up to that broker then?
The listing agent doesn't have procuring cause they only think they do.
Yes, it is up to the principal broker to go after procuring cause which is what I said but that has nothing to do with the listing agreements between agents and sellers. Consumers don't care that the listing is owned by the principal broker.
The listing agent doesn't have procuring cause they only think they do.
Yes, it is up to the principal broker to go after procuring cause which is what I said but that has nothing to do with the listing agreements between agents and sellers. Consumers don't care that the listing is owned by the principal broker.
I disagree. Don't see how that's established at all.
Because it has been arbitrated a bunch of times in REALTOR® associations and MLS boards and I am not aware of one listing agent that won a procuring cause dispute when all the did was show their own listing. The boards have been incredibly consistent in their opinions that just showing a listing is not procuring cause. There has to be continuity for procuring cause.
I'm not a member anymore so I can't look it up, but they used to have a procuring cause dispute checklist and it was discussed heavily on the private NAR site. If you are a member you can get on the NAR members only site and look it up.
Glad its working out for you, but, I'm feeling bad for the listing agent. You wouldnt go to a car lot and have a salesman show you a car, take ya for a spin and then say wrap it up, but I want the commission to go to that guy over there. Commission work is just that. If You do the work, you should get the pay. Her being the lister shouldnt matter imo. Yes I know the problems with this, but I have a feeling nobody could pull a fast one on you! You sound like you know exactly what you expect and what you'll pay. And I'm not saying whats legal or not, just whats fair.
I have to say I dont get why you had her show you the house in the 1st place. That would have been the time to get that buyers agent and make THEM do the work for their pay. Maybe I'm a sap, but my 1st thought was what if the agent cancelled a very important event to show you the home? Maybe she'd had a long day and really wanted to just go home to bed, but she worked for you! So I think she's been unfairly judged in here. And surprise, I'm not a agent or ever been one. I did watch my last seller agent work her tail off doing things she shouldnt have had to do, just to close the deal. I swear I dont know how she does it. There are very hard working agents out there that dont deserve the bad name some get.
Why couldnt Redfin give her a % of their pay? Instead of calling her greedy, I thing they're being a little money grubby. Hope you keep us updated on how this goes, and congrats on finding your dream home.
Glad its working out for you, but, I'm feeling bad for the listing agent. You wouldnt go to a car lot and have a salesman show you a car, take ya for a spin and then say wrap it up, but I want the commission to go to that guy over there. Commission work is just that. If You do the work, you should get the pay. Her being the lister shouldnt matter imo. Yes I know the problems with this, but I have a feeling nobody could pull a fast one on you! You sound like you know exactly what you expect and what you'll pay. And I'm not saying whats legal or not, just whats fair.
I have to say I dont get why you had her show you the house in the 1st place. That would have been the time to get that buyers agent and make THEM do the work for their pay. Maybe I'm a sap, but my 1st thought was what if the agent cancelled a very important event to show you the home? Maybe she'd had a long day and really wanted to just go home to bed, but she worked for you! So I think she's been unfairly judged in here. And surprise, I'm not a agent or ever been one. I did watch my last seller agent work her tail off doing things she shouldnt have had to do, just to close the deal. I swear I dont know how she does it. There are very hard working agents out there that dont deserve the bad name some get.
Why couldnt Redfin give her a % of their pay? Instead of calling her greedy, I thing they're being a little money grubby. Hope you keep us updated on how this goes, and congrats on finding your dream home.
I appreciate your support of the listing agent but it is her JOB to show the house to prospective buyers. That is what she is getting paid A LOT to do. She didn't work for the buyer EVER...she works for the seller. Showing your home on behalf of your seller isn't working for the buyer. The seller pays her to show their house so they don't have to. An agent that complains about showing their listing to buyers needs their head screwed on straight. When I show my listings after introducing myself the first thing I say is..."I just want to remind you that I represent the seller and not you. Please feel free to ask me any questions about the house but remember that anything you tell me about your financial situation, etc., I am legally required to share with my client." Maybe, if the listing agent had said something like that to the OP, the OP would have be cued to tell them they were going to use independent representation and this whole situation could have been avoided.
We will have to disagree on the listing agent being greedy. The buyers expressed interest in having independent representation. What most good agents do is say "Great. Tell me who it is and I'll call them to tell them where to send the offer." I show my listings to other people's clients. The seller is paying me to do that for them.
If the agent cancelled an important event to show the house, they need a shrink to teach them about personal boundaries. That isn't the OP's problem if the listing agent is a doormat. People make a conscious decision to work in real estate knowing that the flexibility of the job sometimes creates problems. I've never missed anything important to show a house. I tell people I'm not available and give them alternative times. It's never been an issue. Really, agents can have boundaries and still do just fine in real estate because consumers are generally good people, like yourself, that get we have a life outside real estate. I've had one person in 8 years call me to list their property and because I couldn't meet with them in two hours they called someone else. Folks like that are rare.
Showing a single house isn't a lot of work. It's the offer to close that is. The buyer agent will earn their compensation during that time AND they will be compensated for all of their time spent showing the OP all the other houses they elected not to buy. How is it fair to the Redfin agent that they lose money over this?
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You wouldnt go to a car lot and have a salesman show you a car, take ya for a spin and then say wrap it up, but I want the commission to go to that guy over there. Commission work is just that. If You do the work, you should get the pay. Her being the lister shouldnt matter imo. Yes I know the problems with this, but I have a feeling nobody could pull a fast one on you! 
You sound like you know exactly what you expect and what you'll pay. And I'm not saying whats legal or not, just whats fair.
