Encroachment Problem / New Homer Owner (RE agent, landlord, legal advice, rent)
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The OP is the one needing the survey to protect their own interest. She can only protect her own interest, once the property is properly surveyed and the exact boundaries are determined. An old survey, is only accurate once the bondry between the neighbor and the OP is determined. Without that knowledge, an old survey is just a piece of paper, without proof of anything. Once the boundry location is determined, then the survey can be used to determine the rest of the area it covers.
Over the last 40 years I have seen a lot of surveys that people had, that did not match the location after a new survey set the boundary pins to work from. Even as far off, as being on the other side of the highway on a steep hilside away from where they thought their lot was located. The survey accurately showed the size of the lot and the legal description, but an accurate survey showed the lot the owner owned, was actually on the other side of the highway and unsuitable to build, not the nice lot he paid cash for, and had his house half built before applying for a construction loan and mortgage to finish the house. The person that owned the lot he was building on, owned the house next door which was build on someone else's lot. Every house in this about 100 house mountin community was built on wrong lots. I explained in an earlier post on this thread, how the problem was solved.
An old survey or plat plan, does not show you where the actual property line is on the ground. Without that as a starting point, there is nothing to go on. Without the survey markers there is no way that an attorney can really help the OP. If he finds he is in the wrong, he has no way to fight the encroachments problem. And if he is in the right, he needs the survey to prove anothers claim to that part of her property is no good.
I agree with you. Whenever the house next door to us has been sold - if I have the slightest suspicion that the new owner is planning to put in a long dock over our property - I get the surveyor out and have him clearly mark/flag our (very irregular) property line. To give the new owner fair warning where his property ends - and ours starts. There are some people who just go ahead and do things without making sure that they have the right to do whatever they're doing. Sounds like the OP's neighbor might be this kind of person. So - if I were the OP - I'd be proactive. Not reactive.
BTW - at least where I live - a lot of land was platted/surveyed before anything was built. In one case - a retention pond/lake wasn't built where it was supposed to be built. So part of someone's backyard wound up in the back of a neighbor's backyard. On the other side of the retention pond (about 100' feet away). It wasn't a few inches of land either. More like 25' by 75'. What a mess . The 2 owners in question eventually resolved things (I think the owner of the property with the extra backyard - or perhaps his title insurance company - paid the owner with the disconnected backyard some money to buy the land and "quiet title").
Here is a website the OP can use to determine what a survey should cost in her area. $1700 seems out of line:
The OP is the one needing the survey to protect their own interest. She can only protect her own interest, once the property is properly surveyed and the exact boundaries are determined. An old survey, is only accurate once the bondry between the neighbor and the OP is determined. Without that knowledge, an old survey is just a piece of paper, without proof of anything. Once the boundry location is determined, then the survey can be used to determine the rest of the area it covers.
Over the last 40 years I have seen a lot of surveys that people had, that did not match the location after a new survey set the boundary pins to work from. Even as far off, as being on the other side of the highway on a steep hilside away from where they thought their lot was located. The survey accurately showed the size of the lot and the legal description, but an accurate survey showed the lot the owner owned, was actually on the other side of the highway and unsuitable to build, not the nice lot he paid cash for, and had his house half built before applying for a construction loan and mortgage to finish the house. The person that owned the lot he was building on, owned the house next door which was build on someone else's lot. Every house in this about 100 house mountin community was built on wrong lots. I explained in an earlier post on this thread, how the problem was solved.
An old survey or plat plan, does not show you where the actual property line is on the ground. Without that as a starting point, there is nothing to go on. Without the survey markers there is no way that an attorney can really help the OP. If he finds he is in the wrong, he has no way to fight the encroachments problem. And if he is in the right, he needs the survey to prove anothers claim to that part of her property is no good.
Can you clarify something for me?
In reading this (bolded), it reads to me that you are saying that simply performing a new survey may invalidate an existing survey by setting boundary pins as part of the new survey. What would the old survey have used that is no longer valid?
Am I reading that correctly or am I missing something? Thanks.
I agree with you. Whenever the house next door to us has been sold - if I have the slightest suspicion that the new owner is planning to put in a long dock over our property - I get the surveyor out and have him clearly mark/flag our (very irregular) property line. To give the new owner fair warning where his property ends - and ours starts. There are some people who just go ahead and do things without making sure that they have the right to do whatever they're doing. Sounds like the OP's neighbor might be this kind of person. So - if I were the OP - I'd be proactive. Not reactive.
BTW - at least where I live - a lot of land was platted/surveyed before anything was built. In one case - a retention pond/lake wasn't built where it was supposed to be built. So part of someone's backyard wound up in the back of a neighbor's backyard. On the other side of the retention pond (about 100' feet away). It wasn't a few inches of land either. More like 25' by 75'. What a mess . The 2 owners in question eventually resolved things (I think the owner of the property with the extra backyard - or perhaps his title insurance company - paid the owner with the disconnected backyard some money to buy the land and "quiet title").
Here is a website the OP can use to determine what a survey should cost in her area. $1700 seems out of line:
I really don't get your point here? If the O.P.'s "stuff" is encroaching on someone else's property, getting a survey at her expense isn't going to "save" it, or "give her standing" - she'll need to pay for an easement, or take it down - and her title insurer has already said they'ed pay (or presumably fight) for her.
If the neighbor damages her stuff & is later found to be in error, well - he's in for a very bad day.
For now, he's all bluster & foam, as are most all neighbors who want to fight about property lines. The neighbor is looking at easily $10k+ in attorney's fees to legally kick her off the property, and doing it through the courts would require him to give up his survey in order to prove his case. pretty easy to settle things then - turn it over to the title company & let them do their thing. If he takes a chainsaw to her garage, she can call the cops & absent a *survey* with a drawing showing her property erected on his dirt, he's likely going to jail.
As for the cost/value of a survey - it's important to know there are different types of surveys & they aren't all cheap. A "site survey" just shows approximately where on a property the structures are - lenders use them to make sure the garage they're financing isn't on the neighbor's land, lol! A survey can be a "stake survey" - where the existing monuments are located or new ones are placed, and you can do one with or without a drawing showing where your structures are in that plot of land. I'm assuming the O.P's lot isn't your basic "square" that could be identified/ plotted with just four stakes & a roll of kite string denoting "mine" and "hers"..
If no one has surveyed in the neighborhood in a long time, the survey costs more -
so assuming that there is some sort of radius or curve to the disputed line, and, knowing there are structures in dispute there, you would want both monuments located or placed & a drawing showing where the structures are to settle the dispute. $1700 doesn't really sound too bad for that.
No there really isn't a chance of something "really awful" happening - he could sue, he could produce the survey, or he could pound sand. Destroying her property would be a really bad move. Changing the grade next to her property would require permits (and survey stakes unless he's a complete fo'.) So no, no action required on her part but telling him to produce the survey or go away, or sue.. but for every ten thousand lawsuits threatened, about 2 actually do it - and the dudes that actually sue aren't waving around tape measures beforehand.
There are MANY jurisdictions where it is all but impossible to have work stopped / reversed.
Here is "worst case" scenario based on an ACTUAL SITUATION that I dealt with in a resort town in Michigan:
If the OP's crummy "builder / flipper on the adjacent property" begins "clearing the lot" and 'accidentally on purpose' causes the garage or driveway to be destroyed then volunteers to rebuild it where he thinks the property line ought to be that may end up eating up so much of the OP's yard that they suffer a significant loss of value. If the OP then finds that her driveway or garage were in fact encroaching on the neighbor's property there is NOTHING she can do to regain her lost value. If she instead GETS OUT IN FRONT of this potential mess by determining the true boundaries then she can make a decision about what comes next. It may be possible to secure a prescriptive easement that allows her to continue use her garage or driveway, she may even petition the courts to redraw her parcel based on adverse possession. There may also be other options depending on local or state laws in her jurisdiction.
I agree that goofy folks with tape measures are rarely successful with lawsuits, but such folks quite often "play stupid" while planning out their diabolic schemes to rip off people. Waiting for such a person to produce something that THERE IS NO LEGAL OBLIGATION to do will not serve the OP's goals of preserving their property value! Similarly anything that is even perceived as "threatening" toward such goofy builder next door, such as "if you don't show me the survey go to court", may invite MORE costly issues. I would consider such an invitation to be "really awful" for someone that is struggling to come up with funds to pay for a survey as any trip to court is going to be even more costly and disruptive.
If the OP does get the results of the survey that show the goofy builder next door to be essentially correct, the range of options she may have should absolutely be discussed with attorneys qualified in such matters. It may even be possible to reach out to local universities that run "student legal clinics" with free or reduced legal representation, especially to folks such as the OP unfamiliar with US legal practices / with modest resources, if the OP is in California it may be wise to investigate local resources -- https://www.studentlegal.ucla.edu/as...0Resources.pdf
OP you shouldn't need to get your entire property surveyed. When I have been involved with property line disputes for my clients we just get that shared boundary line surveyed (the lines of dispute). It is a lot cheaper to do it that way. I've had the surveyor take flags and run them up and down the entire line of that shared boundary so it is clear where the line is. Out here that is $400.
I agree with OldTrader that you should pay for a survey, but only of that line in dispute. It is up to you how many emails you want to have going back and forth, but I find it is easier to get the survey and move the fence if you are indeed on his property or close the conversation if there is no issue.
Surveyors use markers in real time. They don't survey based on online topo maps and a measuring tape. The neighbors "survey" could be feet off with that approach.
Also, in my state, which is where OldTrader is as well, it isn't common to get surveys of subdivision type of homes (acreage is different) unless there is a line dispute. You obviously are in a state where the local custom isn't to get one. Title companies issue title insurance with the boundary lines listed as an exception until the point in which a recent survey is given to them. They don't insure property line disputes without it, but they will still issue a policy. Just like homeowners insurance won't pay for earthquake damage without that extra rider.
Here is a list of state land surveying organizations so click on your state and you will have many options to choose from.
There are MANY jurisdictions where it is all but impossible to have work stopped / reversed.
Here is "worst case" scenario based on an ACTUAL SITUATION that I dealt with in a resort town in Michigan:
If the OP's crummy "builder / flipper on the adjacent property" begins "clearing the lot" and 'accidentally on purpose' causes the garage or driveway to be destroyed then volunteers to rebuild it where he thinks the property line ought to be that may end up eating up so much of the OP's yard that they suffer a significant loss of value. If the OP then finds that her driveway or garage were in fact encroaching on the neighbor's property there is NOTHING she can do to regain her lost value. If she instead GETS OUT IN FRONT of this potential mess by determining the true boundaries then she can make a decision about what comes next. It may be possible to secure a prescriptive easement that allows her to continue use her garage or driveway, she may even petition the courts to redraw her parcel based on adverse possession. There may also be other options depending on local or state laws in her jurisdiction.
I agree that goofy folks with tape measures are rarely successful with lawsuits, but such folks quite often "play stupid" while planning out their diabolic schemes to rip off people. Waiting for such a person to produce something that THERE IS NO LEGAL OBLIGATION to do will not serve the OP's goals of preserving their property value! Similarly anything that is even perceived as "threatening" toward such goofy builder next door, such as "if you don't show me the survey go to court", may invite MORE costly issues. I would consider such an invitation to be "really awful" for someone that is struggling to come up with funds to pay for a survey as any trip to court is going to be even more costly and disruptive.
If the OP does get the results of the survey that show the goofy builder next door to be essentially correct, the range of options she may have should absolutely be discussed with attorneys qualified in such matters. It may even be possible to reach out to local universities that run "student legal clinics" with free or reduced legal representation, especially to folks such as the OP unfamiliar with US legal practices / with modest resources, if the OP is in California it may be wise to investigate local resources -- https://www.studentlegal.ucla.edu/as...0Resources.pdf
Awright - we're going to have to agree to disagree here - getting a "prescriptive easement" or "adverse possession" is going to cost the O.P. ten times what the survey costs in legal fees, minimum, best case. So if her survey proves she's encroaching, she's cooked. If she tells the neighbor to pound sand, come back with a survey, or don't come back, there's a *slim* chance she's cooked, and a very likely chance that bob the builder does pound sand.
That said, I'd get a survey - complete with monuments, drawings & bells hanging from chiffon ribbons all along the length of my property. If my property wasn't encroaching, I'd likely give bob the builder an atomic wedgie for wasting my time & money & might even repaint my house pink just to impress his future homebuyers. I'd also go the other way & lean on my title company for a settlement that made him happy if I was encroaching. But I can afford a survey & apparently thats a significant hardship for the O.P.
Location: Finally the house is done and we are in Port St. Lucie!
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Wouldn't it be funny if the OP got the survey and found that she actually owns More of the Neighbor's property than they both thought?
I personally would like the piece of mind of having a survey done and Knowing where those boundaries really are. But that's just me.
I think there is some excellent advice in the above posts. The ones that stand out the most is "Don't let him get away with trying to get you to pay for a fence". Also, as stated, since he is NOT letting you see the supposed survey that he has, I am thinking that there is something on it he doesn't want you to see..... Maybe something along the lines of my first sentence of this post....
Wouldn't it be funny if the OP got the survey and found that she actually owns More of the Neighbor's property than they both thought?
I personally would like the piece of mind of having a survey done and Knowing where those boundaries really are. But that's just me.
I think there is some excellent advice in the above posts. The ones that stand out the most is "Don't let him get away with trying to get you to pay for a fence". Also, as stated, since he is NOT letting you see the supposed survey that he has, I am thinking that there is something on it he doesn't want you to see..... Maybe something along the lines of my first sentence of this post....
Something to think about.
bob the builder doesn't have a real survey - there's just no way he does. If he had real documentation of an encroachment, he'd have shown it. That said, the O.P. isn't guaranteed, or even in a position to be moderately sure she isn't encroaching. Previous owners could have certainly, even knowingly - crossed over the property line - especially if they thought the land next door was unbuildable scrub land.
Best case, she doesn't lose any dirt, worst case she does & she had nothing at all to do with the original encroachment.
I really don't get your point here? If the O.P.'s "stuff" is encroaching on someone else's property, getting a survey at her expense isn't going to "save" it, or "give her standing" - she'll need to pay for an easement, or take it down - and her title insurer has already said they'ed pay (or presumably fight) for her.
If the neighbor damages her stuff & is later found to be in error, well - he's in for a very bad day.
For now, he's all bluster & foam, as are most all neighbors who want to fight about property lines. The neighbor is looking at easily $10k+ in attorney's fees to legally kick her off the property, and doing it through the courts would require him to give up his survey in order to prove his case. pretty easy to settle things then - turn it over to the title company & let them do their thing. If he takes a chainsaw to her garage, she can call the cops & absent a *survey* with a drawing showing her property erected on his dirt, he's likely going to jail.
As for the cost/value of a survey - it's important to know there are different types of surveys & they aren't all cheap. A "site survey" just shows approximately where on a property the structures are - lenders use them to make sure the garage they're financing isn't on the neighbor's land, lol! A survey can be a "stake survey" - where the existing monuments are located or new ones are placed, and you can do one with or without a drawing showing where your structures are in that plot of land. I'm assuming the O.P's lot isn't your basic "square" that could be identified/ plotted with just four stakes & a roll of kite string denoting "mine" and "hers"..
If no one has surveyed in the neighborhood in a long time, the survey costs more -
so assuming that there is some sort of radius or curve to the disputed line, and, knowing there are structures in dispute there, you would want both monuments located or placed & a drawing showing where the structures are to settle the dispute. $1700 doesn't really sound too bad for that.
Is it? Even the OP does not know.
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. The 2 owners in question eventually resolved things (I think the owner of the property with the extra backyard - or perhaps his title insurance company - paid the owner with the disconnected backyard some money to buy the land and "quiet title").
No idea what things are like in Arizona...
