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Nice and manly are NOT mutually exclusive - we agree on that. My point is that if a woman does not find the guy "manly" (by HER definition) she may use the excuse when breaking up that he is "too nice".
As for the religious part.... mmmm...never said I was religious. Didn't say I wasn't either.
I will turn the other cheek MOST of the time, I believe in keep your friends close and your enemies closer - if I had formal enemies I doubt I would love them, my neighbors are a pain in the ass, I don't believe the meek are any more blessed than anyone else, and I believe in "do unto others as they would have done unto them", I'm different and treating them as I want to be treated would irritate the beejesus out of them.
Fair enough; many thanks for the helpful update Mikala -- I'm sorry for my earlier confusion there Didn't mean to get on your case or anything, lol.
Actually I'm the same as you. I prefer the truth - but I don't get my feelings hurt easily. I have found that most people don't though, and have adjusted accordingly. Though I can't really see EVER telling a guy "no, you are fat and ugly. Just hell to the no."
Though you bring up the black issue. I live in a state with few blacks except military. I've never dated a black man, and it did cause me pause when asked out. In all honesty I accepted few dates, so I had a lot of "pauses". /lol In your opinion should I just come out and said that? Know that if I met someone I considered exceptional, being black wouldn't have been an issue. Was I rejecting them for being black or unexceptional? And which reason should I have cited?
Good morning,
I really appreciate your candid response, it's hard to hear truth like this in the real world since people are afraid of others' opinions.
To clarify, I'm specifically referring to dating situations where a woman meets a guy, agrees to go on dates with him or gets to know him casually, and then tells him he's "too nice" instead of saying you're not attractive or any other reason she's not interested.
I'm not referring to situations where a woman meets a guy on the street and rejects him immediately. She can simply say "Sorry, I'm not interested" and move on. There's no need for explanation of why she's not interested, because there wasn't any time invested on his part.
I'm glad you prefer the hearing the truth as I do. How do you determine if others wouldn't appreciate it as you would? I didn't say one had to be harsh to tell the truth. If I am not attracted to a woman, i wouldn't say "you're fat and ugly", I'd either say "I'm not interested" before even entertaining a date or her phone number, or if I somehow ended up on a date and didn't want to see her again, I'd say "I'm sorry, there's no attraction on my end". If she pushed further, I'd be happy to tell her why there's no attraction in detail, but I'd say it in a kind and helpful way. I've found that a small minority get indignant about that, but in the end the majority thank me for being truthful, because I'm direct but NICE about it.
In regards to race, this brings up a great question. Why does a Black guy asking you out gave you pause? Is it all Black guys, or only the ones you wouldn't consider dating? I'm really curious, since I know you'll give me truthful answers because this is an anonymous forum.
If you would date an exceptional Black man, then it's not about race unless you're saying that the Black guy MUST be exceptional and the white guys don't have to be. If this is the case, I would love to hear your opinion of why there is a different standard. Even if it's race-based, I'd like to hear your explanation of why it matters. Your preference doesn't matter to me since it doesn't affect my freedom or liberty, I am asking out of pure curiosity.
I'm not going to pretend my personal opinion is shared by all other Blacks. I'm sure some or many would be very upset if someone turned them down based on race because of they are hypersensitive about racism and I'm not. I wouldn't care, because I prefer the truth over all else. Also, it's hypocritical to get mad about race-based rejection, while giving a pass to those who date inside the race exclusively and reject others based on nothing but skin color.
All that being said, if you have personal race-based preferences, or if other Blacks do, I am fine with that as long as those personal decisions don't affect other people's liberty.
It's not polite. Even if the truth hurts them, they deserve to receive an honest answer. You can at least say "I won't tell you the reason as you wouldn't want to hear it".
Most guys are not dumb. Even if you say "you're too nice" he'll assume it's another factor (he's too poor, too ugly, bad teeth, and etc.), especially if he's insecure. It's better off for him to get the real answer so he doesn't have to worry everyday. If the last five women that have rejected him all said he's too short then he might start to look for shorter women. But if they said "he's too nice" then he might still not get it.
Finally, I think a reply like "I don't find you attractive" is not offensive at all. Everyone can understand why you wouldn't find someone attractive. You don't have to say they're too short, just say "I don't find you attractive". But if they press for a more detailed answer then it's their fault if your answer hurts them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel
I did edit my post to include that telling him the honest truth might be a useful feedback.
A lot of people don't realize their own flaws or doesn't recognize them as flaws. Even if he's short, he might not realize that being short is an issue (especially if women have been saying that he's too nice). However, if women told him that he's short then he might go after short women and thus improve his success rate.
If he's totally clueless then he might even resort to being a jerk to supposedly fix "being too nice". Hence, I feel giving no answer is better than a misleading answer.
This is all subjective, so I'm sure you're probably just as right as me.
I absolutely agree with this. You made my exact point in a much shorter and concise form.
I believe people are allowing the few who get indignant to censor their honesty. They also underestimate how helpful the truth can be in helping the man succeed with women in the future (like your example of the man who is too short realizing he should be going after short women, which I definitely recommend), and how damaging a sugar coat can be for the next woman. (Ex: "too nice" gets me rejected 100% of the time, so I'll be less nice to the next woman).
If someone rejects you, you have two choices. You can either ask why or just accept it and move on. If they do give you a reason, then you have to decide whether to believe it. I had a woman reject me once because I wasn't the same religion as her. In the back of my mind, I was wondering if she was just using that as an excuse. But I didn't do digging for the answer and just accepted that, for whatever reason, she wasn't interested in me and it was best for me to move on.
Freedom123 asked why women can't give feedback to men so that they know what to work on. Well the answer is that it's not their job to help you. If I reject a woman because she's overweight, I'm not going to tell her "lose weight so that the next guy you're interested in won't reject you." Never mind how cruel that would be, it's not my job to tell her what she needs to change. And for all I know, some other guy may find her attractive. Likewise, if a woman rejects me, it's not for her to explain to me what I have to improve. The stated reason may or may not be the truth. And even if it is, so what? What if it's something you can't change like your race or your height? How does knowing that you were rejected because of your height make you better off?
I've never had a woman tell me I was too nice. Usually if they weren't interested, they would just say so and let me figure out why. And I was perfectly OK with that. Sure you want people to be honest with you, but you also want them to be respectful. I might reject a woman because of her weight, but I'm not going to tell her. On the other hand, if a woman smokes and she asks why I'm rejecting her, I'll probably tell her it's because of her smoking. The latter won't cause her to think less of herself. And really, how stupid are some of these men? If a woman rejects you because she finds you "too nice", don't start thinking you have to start being a jerk. Why do you act those as though nice and jerk are the only two choices? There's a HUGE middle ground between those extremes.
Breaking up is a different story. That's when you should be brutally honest, even if it might hurt the other person's feelings.
I dunno. I got a guy here, seems to be around 37, wanted to keep writing me and followed me around responding to everything I posted until I finally had to put him on ignore. And that guy, if you ask him, he thinks he knows more than a professional, maybe he is a professional?
Perhaps because the professional you speak of sends pictures of his feces to women.
I think I'd rather have a woman tell me what it was about me that made her reject me. It might hurt, but at least it would help me know if it's 1) something I can change and 2) something I want to change. If it's something I can't change (height, face (to an extent)) then oh well. If it's something I don't want to change (religious preference, or lack thereof in my case), then oh well. If it's something I can change AND want to change? Well it'd be nice to know what it is in that case.
Sort of like going to the doctor for a physical, having him tell you "you're unhealthy" and then walk out the door without explaining what about you is unhealthy.
I've never told a guy that he was "too nice." I have said things like, "you're a great guy, but I don't think we're a good match." I can't imagine telling him that I don't want to go out with him because I think he's obnoxious or otherwise not attractive. Honesty isn't always the kindest policy.
Perhaps because the professional you speak of sends pictures of his feces to women.
The professional who I speak of knows how to comprehend what he reads.
What I said was that he sent A PICTURE (ONE PICTURE) to ONE WOMAN who hurt him very badly despite his psychological training. Now if you want to throw something in my face again hun, throw what I gave out and not what you fantasize that I gave out.
I've never told a guy that he was "too nice." I have said things like, "you're a great guy, but I don't think we're a good match." I can't imagine telling him that I don't want to go out with him because I think he's obnoxious or otherwise not attractive. Honesty isn't always the kindest policy.
But we know the code words by now so you aren't sparing any feelings through what you are saying.
Freedom123 asked why women can't give feedback to men so that they know what to work on. Well the answer is that it's not their job to help you. If I reject a woman because she's overweight, I'm not going to tell her "lose weight so that the next guy you're interested in won't reject you." Never mind how cruel that would be, it's not my job to tell her what she needs to change. And for all I know, some other guy may find her attractive. Likewise, if a woman rejects me, it's not for her to explain to me what I have to improve. The stated reason may or may not be the truth. And even if it is, so what? What if it's something you can't change like your race or your height? How does knowing that you were rejected because of your height make you better off?
Breaking up is a different story. That's when you should be brutally honest, even if it might hurt the other person's feelings.
Good morning Denny,
I agree with you on the feedback when breaking up. We seem to only differ in the stage of the relationship where feedback is useful.
You underestimate the power of polling. If a man is getting rejected 100% of the time and the standard line is because he's "too nice", you're right, it's not the women's job to help him, but it IS helpful feedback so he can change the type of women he's going after, or change things about himself so he can improve his chances. Feedback helps men AND women with the opposite sex.
You also misinterpreted my method of feedback. Notice in my last post to Mikala43, I said that I'm NICE and HELPFUL about it. I have never had a problem telling a woman her figure was the reason I wasn't interested (and my weight/figure limit is higher than average). Some had hurt feelings but they appreciated the feedback because other men never said so, they simply got what they wanted and left. Yes, there are men who do prefer larger women, but we all know that is not the majority in our society. Giving a larger woman feedback would help her decide to either reduce her size or seek out men who prefer larger women. In my experience, no feedback left them thinking something was wrong with them internally since the men showed some level of interest and never indicated weight was a problem. I have heard this from women many many times. You'd be surprised how many women (especially here in the South) don't realize their weight is an issue or reduces their dating options since many people are large, and men with ulterior motives still approach them.
In regards to height and race, there IS something that can be changed about it. Malkiel said it best, if a short man doesn't know his problem is height, female feedback will push him in the right direction towards going after short women. The same applies for race. If a man doesn't know his race is an issue (like those who grew up in "colorblind" or politically correct areas), female feedback will push him in the direction of women of all races who see his race as their ideal.
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Didn't mean to get on your case or anything, lol.
