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Last month, a book came out called The End of Men. I haven't read it yet, but I read many of the reviews of it, both positive and negative ones.
The premise of the book is that women in the West are more successful in their careers than men are, and are achieving better academically and that the age of when men were 'needed' is essentially over.
Now, while I'm certainly no male chauvinist and have never considered myself a 'man's man', the suggestion that the male gender is 'obsolete' seems pretty threatening to me. It's become increasingly common to hear women say they don't 'need' a man.
In a way, the less gender roles matter, the less a person 'needs' the opposite sex, no? Despite postmodern babble about how the differences between the sexes are 100% socially constructed and the truth is there's no difference between men and women at the brain or genetic level, aside from our private parts, the fact is the majority of women are not going to wish to be with men who lack ambition, or even have ambition but lack success, and the majority of men are not going to wish to be with a woman who isn't sweet and compassionate and has no 'need' for them.
Most men find femininity attractive and sexy and most women find success and drive attractive and sexy. I don't think any amount of social conditioning can really change this fundamental human nature. Of course, a minority of men and women have tastes differing from the norm, but on average I think this is essentially true.
What would I like to see? Well, I think anyone should be allowed to do whatever they would wish to do without being criticized for it, as long as it's not hurtful. I think men should be allowed to be stay at home dads and women should be allowed to be CEOs.
But, what I don't agree with, is this idea that it would necessarily be a better world if 50% of men were stay at home dads and 50% of women were bread winners and that we should socially condition society militantly until this is true. The reason why is because due to human nature, this will simply lead to more loneliness. Women today are dissatisfied with men because our society teaches men to be meek and not to complain, because they are supposedly 'privileged' and have it all, and historically speaking, the love of a woman encouraged a man to succeed. Nowadays, women are taught that they don't need a man, that they're better off without a man, and that if they go to school and work hard, they can raise their children on their own. Which of course is a huge burden, both to the mother and to their children, and really in the end only lets the man/father off the hook since his child's mother likely isn't attracted to him because he lacks success and thus she doesn't even want him in their children's life.
I think it's wrong to bully a woman for being a mechanic or a CEO. I think it's wrong to bully a man for being a stay at home dad or a nurse. But I also think it's wrong to bully society into accepting 50-50 statistics on everything. The end result will be that everybody will just be overworked and too busy for others and men and women literally won't 'need' each other at all anymore.
So I think yes, gender roles do have a place and even though it's not fair, it's still somewhat reasonable to accept them and it's unreasonable to want to completely dismantle them. As a man I accept the fact that without a career, most women will want nothing to do with me. And if I were a woman, I could accept the fact that if I burped in public and told a lot of fart jokes it would turn off most men.
But, what I don't agree with, is this idea that it would necessarily be a better world if 50% of men were stay at home dads and 50% of women were bread winners and that we should socially condition society militantly until this is true. The reason why is because due to human nature, this will simply lead to more loneliness. Women today are dissatisfied with men because our society teaches men to be meek and not to complain, because they are supposedly 'privileged' and have it all, and historically speaking, the love of a woman encouraged a man to succeed. Nowadays, women are taught that they don't need a man, that they're better off without a man, and that if they go to school and work hard, they can raise their children on their own. Which of course is a huge burden, both to the mother and to their children, and really in the end only lets the man/father off the hook since his child's mother likely isn't attracted to him because he lacks success and thus she doesn't even want him in their children's life.
I also think it's wrong to bully society into accepting 50-50 statistics on everything. The end result will be that everybody will just be overworked and too busy for others and men and women literally won't 'need' each other at all anymore.
gender roles do have a place and even though it's not fair, it's still somewhat reasonable to accept them and it's unreasonable to want to completely dismantle them.
Is anyone actually promoting this (bolded) at all, let alone bullying? Does the book say that? Don't go by the reviews; read it and get back to us. I've read that it's saying that women (theoretically) no longer need a man for financial support. That's very different from saying they don't need men for anything at all. And with globalization and major changes in the economy, it takes two paychecks for most couples to get by, anyway. So...meh. I don't see what the fuss is about.
As you said earlier, everyone should get to do whatever they prefer. I don't think that's going to result in the 50-50 situation that you describe. Who teaches women that they're better off without a man, "nowadays"? I've never heard that. Most women want a man for companionship and mutual emotional support and love. That's not going to change. Why would it?
Is anyone actually promoting this (bolded) at all, let alone bullying? Does the book say that? Don't go by the reviews; read it and get back to us.
As you said earlier, everyone should get to do whatever they prefer. I don't think that's going to result in the 50-50 situation that you describe. Who teaches women that they're better off without a man, "nowadays"? I've never heard that. Most women want a man for companionship and mutual emotional support and love. That's not going to change. Why would it?
Let's put it this way. The fact I am skeptical of the theory that gender roles are 100% socially constructed and that their effect on society is entirely negative would lose me a lot of friends if I admitted it.
Some countries actually mandate that 50% of the politicians seated are women. I think this is unfair because due to the fact men are inherently more competitive than women on average, it gives any politician who happens to be female a huge advantage over an equally qualified male politician.
To me sexism is not accepting that the sexes on average have different tendencies, it's being intolerant of the people who happen to not fall into the average.
I don't care what the current theory of gender roles is. I just live my life.
I don't understand your rationale about the male/female politicians issue. It's not going to happen in your country or mine, so who cares, anyway? Countries like Uganda, where a lot of men were killed off, are doing well with female politicians. Europe (with the possible exception of Sweden, ha), Australia, and North America aren't Uganda. This is a non-issue for me. Why is it an issue for you?
I don't care what the current theory of gender roles is. I just live my life.
I don't understand your rationale about the male/female politicians issue. It's not going to happen in your country or mine, so who cares, anyway? Countries like Uganda, where a lot of men were killed off, are doing well with female politicians. Europe (with the possible exception of Sweden, ha), Australia, and North America aren't Uganda. This is a non-issue for me. Why is it an issue for you?
I would just hate it if they were hardly any feminine women left. I think feminine women are beautiful
I just don't think abandoning gender roles completely is necessarily a good thing for society.
I would just hate it if they were hardly any feminine women left. I think feminine women are beautiful
I just don't think abandoning gender roles completely is necessarily a good thing for society.
Good for you. I don't think you have anything to worry about. Feminine women are here to stay. So are feminine men. So are more tomboyish women. So are macho men. And so are all gradations of the spectrum in-between, for both genders. Celebrate diversity! Nobody's doing any abandoning, they're just being themselves. Can you handle that?
There is no legislative anti-gender-role steamroller headed your way. Relax, and enjoy life.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 10-11-2012 at 01:10 AM..
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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I get what you're saying, that maybe there is a reason that these gender roles exist, and maybe that reason somehow underpins a functional society/relations between men and women. As Ruth said I don't think it's being forced on anybody, but you're right, the idea that men don't need women or women don't need men is a bit annoying. In a sense we don't, but what's wrong with helping each other out? I think it's more the Western individualistic society where everyone makes it on his or her own. In other cultures there's more of a give and take, and women aren't told that wanting to be a housewife is 'demeaning.'
I would just hate it if they were hardly any feminine women left. I think feminine women are beautiful
I just don't think abandoning gender roles completely is necessarily a good thing for society.
It's all about flexibility. Just let people be who they are and allow them to attain their goals or fulfill their talents. Insisting all that all little girls should wear pink and play with dolls is wrong too. We are not all wired the same way.
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