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Consent was given. Non consent is RAPE. We can't go around mangling rules just for for poster's fun. It's either rape or not. Also It's not just 1 element that you look at, it is all the elements.
He knowingly entered and stayed
He wasn't held beyond his free will
He knew of the sexual environment
He was offered re-ups and he obliged
He knowingly gave his card on numerous occasions
He knowingly did not have a good time
He knowingly and admitted to being too drunk but able to recall in detail all of those elements
At what point are we held accountable for our actions? Let me break out the book for you The nature of the decision
It's a ***** house... Need I say more????? Reasonable alternatives to the proposed decision
He chose not to remove himself and was not being held against his will (that is huge)
The relevant risks, benefits, and uncertainties related to each alternative
He knew it was for pay and went along with paying his card and stayed Assessment of understanding
He knew all the way up to the point of giving his CC and continued to give it up knowingly The acceptance of the decision
He fully accepted but just wasn't happy with the outcome. Does consent have a choice of enjoying it or not?
When he became so inebriated he was unable to give consent. Was it a violent and physically painful rape? Probably not. He still had sex without being able to give consent.
Would he be able to prove it in a court of law? probably not.
From a moral standpoint it was a rape.
What about drunk women who have sex with their date but later regret it? Gotcha.
This is currently a grey area in the law. I'm not sure, but I believe that a case is considered rape if the woman was passed out at the time of the crime, or was fading in and out of consciousness. In other words, if the person is drunk to the point of incapacitation, then it can be considered rape. If the person has their wits about them enough to give consent, it isn't rape. That's why California recently passed a law requiring a "Yes", not merely the absence of a "no".
So the OP was in a grey area in-between incapacitated and sufficiently conscious. It would be a tough case in court. However, that doesn't mean that he's not suffering any of the psychological effects of a rape. If he's showing signs of trauma, then a trauma occurred, no matter what a court would decide.
OP, is there any chance you could muster the courage to go back there, and take your case to the media, at least, to expose the scam, if not consult with a lawyer? Of course, some of the media would treat it as a joke, but you might be able to do some good. Others would be forewarned.
I think it is a slippery slope to not hold people accountable for their actions when drunk. The management may have taken advantage of the OP financially, but not physically. It was a business transaction.
We don't excuse people who are too drunk to know they shouldn't get behind the wheel, nor do we excuse drunk people who blow their life savings at he craps table.
Only the drunk person is behind the wheel. Only the drunk person is at the craps table. And actually, if someone is as tanked as the OP was, and barely coherent and fluttering in and out of awareness as the OP was, that person probably would have been guided away from a craps table and/or not allowed to place a bet.
Regardless, there is no coercion by a third party in either of those cases, and there is no third party putting their hands on the drunk person and putting them behind the wheel or at the craps table, the way the OP was physically led into the establishment, and the way someone sexually touched the OP.
I was spoken to by a women. Although I did not understand with much clarity her words, I could grasp the general idea of what it was she was saying... I.e pay for sex.
In my inebriated state, I can just remember thinking 'ahh why not' and handed over my card. Not entirely sure of what exactly it was I was paying for, nor how much it was costing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annistar
I must have blacked out shortly. I was apparently in this place for 4 hours, though my memory certainly does not account for this ammount of time.
IMO, it was first consensual sex you stupidly agreed to because of lowered inhibitions, but then turned into rape. If you blacked out and services were still being rendered, that's straight up non-consensual sex. You mentioned that's what happened after entering the situation, but for the sake of my questions below let's assume that you were just as drunk the entire night as you were when you got pulled into the venue.
Where do you draw the line between someone making a stupid decision by agreeing to pay for sex while heavily intoxicated and someone getting raped by agreeing to pay for sex while heavily intoxicated?
I'm curious what you reason the difference is since, in my opinion, you gave consent if you genuinely did understand what was going on, despite lowered inhibitions. Your judgment was impaired, you could safely say your wallet was taken advantage of, but at no point was there the threat of violence, assault, or blackmail if you didn't give your body up. They could've threatened for you to pony up more money, but that would've been theft and not rape, right?
If a man or woman is heavily intoxicated and ends up at a party where he/she regrettably has sex (for free) with someone, is this rape? You hear of these cases where a victim consented while drunk but then tries to charge the partner with rape when there was no force, coercion, or duress. It comes down to discerning between regrettable decision that the victim needs to be held accountable for and an act of taking advantage of someone that the other person needs to be accountable for.
This is why strangers shouldn't have drunk sex with each other, since it's impossible to tell just how inebriated someone is. An individual can be functioning and seemingly okay, and even may have verbally consented, but could be in the middle of a blackout episode that they won't remember the next day. It's really tough to navigate these situations with regards to the victim deserving justice if he/she feels traumatized, but the possibility of the rapist having obtained consent. Drunk sex is just a bad, bad idea in most cases.
For comparison purposes, if a man or woman gets drugged at a club and wakes up alone with a slight hangover but no recollection of the night before, he/she won't feel traumatized at first. "They weren't awake to know what I was doing to them" does NOT negate rape. The victim not experiencing trauma until the attacker or police fills them in on what happened does not suddenly make it rape from previously not-rape. They got raped either way.
If you blacked out and they knew you were that far gone while still offering services, IMO it's rape. But up until that point where you were aware enough to understand you were handing over payment for sex, you probably could have made the decision to get out of there if you genuinely wanted nothing to do with what those ladies were selling.
Last edited by glenmorangie; 12-01-2014 at 09:33 PM..
I think this was the case of the OP... So where do we draw the line of consent? Can we drink, accpet, then recant? It would have been one thing if he was incapable of or had blacked out. He did not. He gave up his card on many occasions knowing where he was. Had he said he didn't want to but didn't have a way or was afraid, then may he would have an ethical case. But he went in all the way on all occasions. You can't overlook that part.
Only the drunk person is behind the wheel. Only the drunk person is at the craps table. And actually, if someone is as tanked as the OP was, and barely coherent and fluttering in and out of awareness as the OP was, that person probably would have been guided away from a craps table and/or not allowed to place a bet.
Regardless, there is no coercion by a third party in either of those cases, and there is no third party putting their hands on the drunk person and putting them behind the wheel or at the craps table, the way the OP was physically led into the establishment, and the way someone sexually touched the OP.
I dunno, Lilac. He knew what he was doing.
Quote:
I was spoken to by a women. Although I did not understand with much clarity her words, I could grasp the general idea of what it was she was saying... I.e pay for sex.
In my inebriated state, I can just remember thinking 'ahh why not' and handed over my card.Not entirely sure of what exactly it was I was paying for, nor how much it was costing.
Bull ****
*You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink*
I think this was the case of the OP... So where do we draw the line of consent? Can we drink, accpet, then recant? It would have been one thing if he was incapable of or had blacked out. He did not. He gave up his card on many occasions knowing where he was. Had he said he didn't want to but didn't have a way or was afraid, then may he would have an ethical case. But he went in all the way on all occasions. You can't overlook that part.
There is a difference between the OP's situation and two drunk people having sex. People hooking up is fine. It's the imbalance of power that partly makes it rape.
He was coerced into the place in a very inebriated state, wasn't sure what was going on, and did not explicitly give consent to the sex worker. The sex worker and bouncers had all the power in the situation.
Let's say the OP went to a bar and got drunk. He was put into a car and then into a strange home. He is asked for money and gives it in a drunken state. A person he does not want to have sex with proceeds to have sex with him. That's rape.
The only difference is that one happened in a strip club/brothel.
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