Age gap, how much is too much? (male, older, family)
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All of human history up until about 25 years ago that's when people started having kids of their own. Expanding childhood into the 20s seems to be quite a new thing. So I don't agree.
20 is when you need to be thinking about being a parent.
Likely because they are being treated as though they are children. Now I'm 40 and my partner is 32. If we were heterosexuals it would be too late for children.
Does seem to be a trend of accepting that the 20s are a time for being wild, clubbing and “finding yourself.” Not that it should be this way, but I have one relative that’s now ~70 who was married at 14-15 and stayed married. Several others at 18-21. I guess people grew up faster back then. My dad at 11-12 years old had a paper route and would get up early to get his 3 sisters ready for school…then walk them to and from school…military by age 18…full time work by 22 onward. Grandparents had jobs on the farm by like 6 or 7 years old.
Does seem to be a trend of accepting that the 20s are a time for being wild, clubbing and “finding yourself.” Not that it should be this way, but I have one relative that’s now ~70 who was married at 14-15 and stayed married. Several others at 18-21. I guess people grew up faster back then. My dad at 11-12 years old had a paper route and would get up early to get his 3 sisters ready for school…then walk them to and from school…military by age 18…full time work by 22 onward. Grandparents had jobs on the farm by like 6 or 7 years old.
My mother was 27 when she had me and I'm the youngest of four.
All of human history up until about 25 years ago that's when people started having kids of their own. Expanding childhood into the 20s seems to be quite a new thing. So I don't agree.
20 is when you need to be thinking about being a parent.
Likely because they are being treated as though they are children. Now I'm 40 and my partner is 32. If we were heterosexuals it would be too late for children.
People are having kids much later and are moving out of their parents homes much later these days, this is a fact.
I'm 53, much older than you and I see this, you seem to be living in a 1950s model where people all had kids in their teens and and early 20s.
It ain't like that these days.
People are being coddled much more these days, 25 seems to be the new 18 for some people.
People are having kids much later and are moving out of their parents homes much later these days, this is a fact.
that's fine but someone isn't wrong if they start dating at 19 or 20 years old that's when you're supposed to do it
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I'm 53, much older than you and I see this, you seem to be living in a 1950s model where people all had kids in their teens and and early 20s.
Again it doesn't bother me if people live with their parents into their late 20s or even 30s. It doesn't matter to me if people wait till later in their life to have kids. What bothers me is when they try and say a 20 year old is a kid. No they're not this idea that childhood needs to be perpetuated into your mid-20s is brand new among the species and it's only among the people in the first world.
It was originally meant as a message to someone who's dating somebody that's 20 to argue against people that say that that's wrong. It isn't.
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It ain't like that these days.
the only thing that changed is people views the 20s as this space in which you have an extra 4 years of childhood.
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People are being coddled much more these days, 25 seems to be the new 18 for some people.
[/quote] chances are if a 19 or 20 year old is interested in 27 or 28 year old they probably weren't coddled. Outside of this idea of extended childhood there's nothing wrong with that.
that's fine but someone isn't wrong if they start dating at 19 or 20 years old that's when you're supposed to do it
Again it doesn't bother me if people live with their parents into their late 20s or even 30s. It doesn't matter to me if people wait till later in their life to have kids. What bothers me is when they try and say a 20 year old is a kid. No they're not this idea that childhood needs to be perpetuated into your mid-20s is brand new among the species and it's only among the people in the first world.
It was originally meant as a message to someone who's dating somebody that's 20 to argue against people that say that that's wrong. It isn't.
the only thing that changed is people views the 20s as this space in which you have an extra 4 years of childhood.
chances are if a 19 or 20 year old is interested in 27 or 28 year old they probably weren't coddled. Outside of this idea of extended childhood there's nothing wrong with that.
actually I don't think anyone feels that way, 18-25'ish is not viewed as childhood, it's more the sweetspot of your lifespan, you basically have all the rights and privileges of adulthood without most of the obligations and expectations, it's the time to make memories, and live the stories you will be telling the rest of your life because by 26-30 all the crappy parts of adulthood come with a vengeance, by then you have moved up at your job to the point you have more responsibilities, your dating pool starts to shrink, you have a mortgage or high rent because your run down shoebox apartment don't pull the ladies like it did at 20(when you got points just for not living with your mom) so your fun stuff vs responsibilities ratio gets depressingly screwed towards tedium.
sadly the best, most fun stage of your life is also the shortest as all the other life stages get close to 2 decades. the carefree young adult stage only gets 4 - 6 years if your lucky.
I do refer to 20 year olds as "kids" in the way that older (relatively) people do...though I don't view them as children, exactly, I don't see them as complete adults yet, either. It's a time with a high risk of making decisions you will regret later and spend the rest of your life paying for, is what it is. While individuals at this stage should indeed be dating, making some adult decisions, and getting out into the world on their own...I still believe that they need some guidance and support. And recognition of any ways in which they are vulnerable taken into account.
For instance, if an older person's rationale for persuading a younger person to date them, has any components of, "You need help with income, transportation (for those youngsters who for some reason delay learning to drive these days) or other serious life stuff, so let me into your life and I can help you"... That kind of thing is coercive. It sets up a situation where the older person has power over the younger one, the younger one is counting on help that they need from the older one, and they might go along with things that they would otherwise refuse if they did not have those factors in the picture.
At 18, 19, 20...I wasn't really making good life decisions. I wasn't ready. And my lack of life experience certainly did make me vulnerable when an overbearing 29 year old man crashed into my life and took it over. I didn't really know how to say no to older men in any way that they would listen to. And in those situations, when the younger person gets old enough to have established some more solid footing in life themselves, and to realize that they're not happy with the situation, they do tend to leave those marriages. By that time, often, there are kids who then have to go through the break in their family, which may or may not be pretty hard on them.
But in all honesty though, the relationship itself was not the biggest problem, nor would it have been if we'd married when I was young. It was getting pregnant at 19. I think that if I'd understood how to keep my birth control pills coming (no one taught me how to get insurance, find or book doctors, it was before the internet AND before the ACA, so my Dad kicked me off his health insurance at 18, I don't think he had a choice then)... If I had not been relying on condoms and if I had not become pregnant so young, then when I realized I was in a bad situation, I might have felt more free to get out of it.
Kids are a much bigger commitment, much more "non-negotiable" feeling, than any relationship with a romantic partner, even a marriage. I still have to talk to my ex, frequently, the man who threatened me with a gun, I still have to deal with him now when I'm 43 years old and 7 years after leaving him, BECAUSE I got pregnant at age 19 and we had the two kids we had and one of them at least still needs a lot of help and support from both of us. I don't even know if I will be free of the consequences of that for the rest of my days on this earth. I was not at all ready at that young an age to commit to something that is LIFE. LONG. I couldn't even properly conceptualize what that even meant. And you bet your backside I do place a somewhat higher measure of blame on him for it.
What has changed, from those "good ol' days of yore" when our grandparents and great grandparents got hitched and started families in their teens? SO MUCH. Just the basic economics to start with. People with normal jobs could find ways to get homes to live in and food to eat. Hell, even my depression era grandparents found ways to hustle themselves out of a life of poverty and crime and into an upstanding, respectable situation and all they had to do was learn to cut hair and go work on a Marine base. This work had them firmly in the middle class within just a few years, back in the 60s when my Mom was a kid.
The other factor is an increase in freedom for everyday Americans. More freedom means more choices, and even more freedom to fail. More choices means things like career options for women, no-fault divorce, less "you have to deal with this whether you like it or not" forces demanding people stay in set roles. All this bemoaning of traditional values and life in the sense of "things were better in the old days" and panic about people not doing things they way they were "always done before"... It is anti freedom. It's high time people started getting real about what they are thinking and saying. You're saying that freedom isn't a good thing. That too much freedom causes the collapse of society, basically. Because if "freedom" is only a word you like when people are freely choosing what you think they should in life, well...that's not freedom.
With more freedom and more choices, that's where younger people will run the risk of making choices that don't work out well for them in the long run. I think that yes, the freedom is good, BUT, it is wise to recognize that growing up and maturing mentally is a process and to at least strongly advise younger people to just...slow their roll, into any massive decisions that they cannot take back. And I believe that any older person advising a much younger adult to hurry into a serious commitment of any kind is kinda unethical. But when all parties are older adults, hey, whatever ya want. At some point that's what free adult life is, making your choices and living with the results.
Of course, there can be consequences to the older adult as well, for a poor choice of this nature.
When the young person does not stay static but matures and changes and possibly grows apart from you. There's that one. And then with this situation, again, there are the possible consequences of dating a coworker. Personally, I just think of how people talk about one another during breakups and ask myself if I want that kind of talk flying around my workplace with my name featured prominently in it. Does not sound so appealing to me.
actually I don't think anyone feels that way, 18-25'ish is not viewed as childhood, it's more the sweetspot of your lifespan, you basically have all the rights and privileges of adulthood without most of the obligations and expectations, it's the time to make memories, and live the stories you will be telling the rest of your life because by 26-30 all the crappy parts of adulthood come with a vengeance, by then you have moved up at your job to the point you have more responsibilities, your dating pool starts to shrink, you have a mortgage or high rent because your run down shoebox apartment don't pull the ladies like it did at 20(when you got points just for not living with your mom) so your fun stuff vs responsibilities ratio gets depressingly screwed towards tedium.
sadly the best, most fun stage of your life is also the shortest as all the other life stages get close to 2 decades. the carefree young adult stage only gets 4 - 6 years if your lucky.
Wow, you are a lot of fun at parties!!!
But I guess as you get out of that idealistic age, you do get more cynical.
I think the original point is that, while you are an adult, you still aren't fully mature. There's a reason males have much higher auto rates until 25. I was pretty mature for my age, but when I think back about how I acted and reacted from 18 to 21, I feel like I was still a kid.
actually I don't think anyone feels that way, 18-25'ish is not viewed as childhood, it's more the sweetspot of your lifespan, you basically have all the rights and privileges of adulthood without most of the obligations and expectations, it's the time to make memories, and live the stories you will be telling the rest of your life because by 26-30 all the crappy parts of adulthood come with a vengeance, by then you have moved up at your job to the point you have more responsibilities, your dating pool starts to shrink, you have a mortgage or high rent because your run down shoebox apartment don't pull the ladies like it did at 20(when you got points just for not living with your mom) so your fun stuff vs responsibilities ratio gets depressingly screwed towards tedium.
sadly the best, most fun stage of your life is also the shortest as all the other life stages get close to 2 decades. the carefree young adult stage only gets 4 - 6 years if your lucky.
The fact that the dating pool is shrinking is why you should find someone in your twenties. Being carefree and young is childhood.
I studied history in college which was pretty useless but it does give me insight when people say things like "we are extending childhood into the 20s when people used to have families at 18."
It's more accurate to say that WOMEN had to grow up fast and start having kids around 20ish. Especially, ironically, the more upper class a woman was. Women from familes with land & money would marry off their daughters in their late teens to a man who was 25-30ish. Her job was to have kids.
In the medieval, early modern era, peasants didn't usually start families until their early-mid 20s.
In America when it was mostly rural, it would often take a man until 25-30+ to get established & then he'd start trying to find a woman who was 18-24ish. Families had excess daughters aged 16-24 they wouldn't know what to do with... it's a reason they created boarding schools, finishing schools, had church socials, revival meetings, etc... trying to pair those women off.
No. Industrial society actually sped up the family formation process, culminating with the post WWII period when the average age of marriage dropped like a freaking rock. Historically it was an anomolous period to have people forming households at 20, and a testament to the unique prosperity in the U.S. at that time.
Another anomoly is the nuclear family being an isolated pod. If you look at census records, before 1945 it was quite common to have 2-3 generations living in the same household, especially on farms, & it would take years for the older brothers & sisters to estsblish themseves on their own.
There would be a lot of situations, like - older brother goes off to work in some city, on other farms, mining out west, at sea, etc... from ages 17ish to 25ish and then come home, live with his family & try to find a wife aged circa 16-23.
In most countries and U.S. states even when they did universal male suffrage they often set the minimum voting age to 23-25. That should give you sone sense of how they perceived the maturity of the <25 set.
Last edited by redguard57; 08-27-2022 at 12:09 PM..
About a month ago, I was talking to the receptionist at the massage clinic I use. She said her friend is in her late 40s and is married to a guy in his mid 20s. Said it's one of the strongest relationships she has ever seen. Point being, age is just a number. If you like someone and they like you, don't let either person's age be a hurdle because of fear of what others think (unless of course it involves an adult and a minor then that's a no go obviously lol).
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