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When men complain because their wife doesn't want to have sex they are told to respect them, not push them, and work hard on romancing her, buying her stuff, and jumping through fiery hoops. When it is the other way around you'll see how the comments are quite different.
There's no denying that there's a double standard. I don't even bother to bring it up anymore, because it seems like many people don't see the double standard because they're fine with it.
I too have come across those "it's all about the damsel" relationship advisors. I just ignore them. Those people aren't going anywhere. Their belief in that way of things is foundational to them, and challenging them usually causes them to dig in their heels. They're free to look for men who agree with that narrative. As for those of us who want something different, including staying single, it isn't their place to presume to "fix" us.
There's no denying that there's a double standard. I don't even bother to bring it up anymore, because it seems like many people don't see the double standard because they're fine with it.
When men complain because their wife doesn't want to have sex they are told to respect them, not push them, and work hard on romancing her, buying her stuff, and jumping through fiery hoops. When it is the other way around you'll see how the comments are quite different.
My gut reaction is to agree with the general sense of what you're saying, although your comment about buying women stuff as a means to improve a couple's sex life is news to me. If you haven't noticed, including that allows people to focus on the inaccuracy in your comment and to ignore the part that has some merit. So I think you have a point, but you undermined it.
Your point that men seem to get blamed for their own sexual issues and to some extent for their women partner's issues is on target in my experience. By men and women. I think that's based in part on some faulty assumptions we make about men's interest in sex being constant and women's interest being mostly subtle and generally less than men's. But it's also based on some real stuff that I think men and women fail to fully integrate into their thoughts about sex, especially in long term relationships.
The book Sonic recommended is good. It's mostly oriented toward women losing interest and what men and women can do to help, but when there's a mismatch women are the less interested party about 2/3 of the time, so that makes sense. And the author does a good job though of presenting the case that women's sexual response really does tend to be more complicated than men's, and she does so without blaming men (or women) for not getting this or not knowing how to deal with it. She focuses on ways to understand and possibly improve things.
The upshot in the book and the truth it speaks is that men and women typically differ in how they respond and what they respond to, and this has particular consequences in a long term relationship. Men and women who want a happy long term relationship that stays sexually interesting would be wise to accept these differences and do what they each can do to make things work. I think it's just the case that when the woman is less interested there's often more the man can do or not do to help them both enjoy sex more. And while that can feel something like unfair, I think that has more to do with those assumptions we make and how we talk about this stuff, and it can be viewed as an opportunity rather than a burden. If both partners doing something to make each of their sex lives more satisfying seems like a burden, then maybe that ought to be looked at.
That's irrelevant. Spouses don't "owe". Would you marry a "debt collector?"
Don't know why that freaks you out.
Besides, sex out of obligation or a sense of debt? No thank you.
I don't like the idea of my girl having intercourse with me because she feels like she HAS TO or is feeling forced or coerced. I don't like "chore sex."
Last edited by TJenkins602; 03-05-2020 at 12:14 PM..
My gut reaction is to agree with the general sense of what you're saying, although your comment about buying women stuff as a means to improve a couple's sex life is news to me. If you haven't noticed, including that allows people to focus on the inaccuracy in your comment and to ignore the part that has some merit. So I think you have a point, but you undermined it.
Your point that men seem to get blamed for their own sexual issues and to some extent for their women partner's issues is on target in my experience. By men and women. I think that's based in part on some faulty assumptions we make about men's interest in sex being constant and women's interest being mostly subtle and generally less than men's. But it's also based on some real stuff that I think men and women fail to fully integrate into their thoughts about sex, especially in long term relationships.
The book Sonic recommended is good. It's mostly oriented toward women losing interest and what men and women can do to help, but when there's a mismatch women are the less interested party about 2/3 of the time, so that makes sense. And the author does a good job though of presenting the case that women's sexual response really does tend to be more complicated than men's, and she does so without blaming men (or women) for not getting this or not knowing how to deal with it. She focuses on ways to understand and possibly improve things.
The upshot in the book and the truth it speaks is that men and women typically differ in how they respond and what they respond to, and this has particular consequences in a long term relationship. Men and women who want a happy long term relationship that stays sexually interesting would be wise to accept these differences and do what they each can do to make things work. I think it's just the case that when the woman is less interested there's often more the man can do or not do to help them both enjoy sex more. And while that can feel something like unfair, I think that has more to do with those assumptions we make and how we talk about this stuff, and it can be viewed as an opportunity rather than a burden. If both partners doing something to make each of their sex lives more satisfying seems like a burden, then maybe that ought to be looked at.
Thank you for writing this. I find it challenging to put into words sometimes.
One of the issues that I think is probably common, is that for the guy, there's a hope that the solution is as simple as the problem appears to be in their eyes. (Though in reality, the nature of the problem is often more complex but they don't think of it that way.)
So the guy is like, "I crave sex, I have needs, and they are not getting met." The reality might actually be something more like, "She seems willing when I initiate, but she does not initiate, and I do not feel desired." Ha! Whole other problem, now. Not just a physical urge like "Golly, I'm tired and ought to sleep." now is it? To say nothing of the tragic couples whose every expression of physical affection has evaporated. Now you've got skin hunger and loneliness in there, too.
But there's your guy, thinking it's about getting his junk tickled. And that's how he approaches the problem. With a metaphorical wrench, like it's a simple mechanical issue to be corrected. "She has no sex drive. What part do I need to order and replace to get this thing working?" lol (I am gently poking fun, please don't take me seriously, guys.)
But the issue is more likely to be mental and/or emotional, likely for both parties. And the one really, really tricky ingredient in this frustration stew? Even if a woman feels like she has a problem and can admit that, even if the guy is more than willing to do something, anything, for her or to her to get his sex life back, even if he begs her to please just tell him the secret, WHAT DO YOU WANT and how can I make you happy again??? She can't tell him. Because she doesn't know.
She might go to a doctor. She might ask him to "date" her or try some romance. But I think often enough those are just wild guesses, because she does. not. know. Not consciously, anyways. And how frustrating for the poor man standing there, wrench in hand, wanting so badly to find solutions...and it just feels like he wants to try, and she doesn't even care. When really...she just doesn't know where to even start, or what's wrong or why. But the fact is, they've got to work as a team to solve this kind of problem, or it won't get solved at all. The guy might think that the onus is on him, but in reality he can't fix it if she's not on board and doing at least half the work.
And that's why that book was so awesome and helpful in my opinion, although the way it is structured/written made me a bit crazy. That feeling, that something is wrong, and not knowing what it is or how to fix it? Oh my god, that is "the brakes" being engaged. And that was just the beginning. That book de-mystified so much about situations I've been in, and others I have witnessed. It gave me the language to even THINK about what I was feeling, and why.
I think if we look past the word "owe" which not many people here have not, I think the OP used the wrong choice of words for their post, I may be wrong, but I think the intent was along the lines of should people try and recognize that those needs should be addressed.
Thank you for writing this. I find it challenging to put into words sometimes.
One of the issues that I think is probably common, is that for the guy, there's a hope that the solution is as simple as the problem appears to be in their eyes. (Though in reality, the nature of the problem is often more complex but they don't think of it that way.)
So the guy is like, "I crave sex, I have needs, and they are not getting met." The reality might actually be something more like, "She seems willing when I initiate, but she does not initiate, and I do not feel desired." Ha! Whole other problem, now. Not just a physical urge like "Golly, I'm tired and ought to sleep." now is it? To say nothing of the tragic couples whose every expression of physical affection has evaporated. Now you've got skin hunger and loneliness in there, too.
But there's your guy, thinking it's about getting his junk tickled. And that's how he approaches the problem. With a metaphorical wrench, like it's a simple mechanical issue to be corrected. "She has no sex drive. What part do I need to order and replace to get this thing working?" lol (I am gently poking fun, please don't take me seriously, guys.)
But the issue is more likely to be mental and/or emotional, likely for both parties. And the one really, really tricky ingredient in this frustration stew? Even if a woman feels like she has a problem and can admit that, even if the guy is more than willing to do something, anything, for her or to her to get his sex life back, even if he begs her to please just tell him the secret, WHAT DO YOU WANT and how can I make you happy again??? She can't tell him. Because she doesn't know.
She might go to a doctor. She might ask him to "date" her or try some romance. But I think often enough those are just wild guesses, because she does. not. know. Not consciously, anyways. And how frustrating for the poor man standing there, wrench in hand, wanting so badly to find solutions...and it just feels like he wants to try, and she doesn't even care. When really...she just doesn't know where to even start, or what's wrong or why. But the fact is, they've got to work as a team to solve this kind of problem, or it won't get solved at all. The guy might think that the onus is on him, but in reality he can't fix it if she's not on board and doing at least half the work.
And that's why that book was so awesome and helpful in my opinion, although the way it is structured/written made me a bit crazy. That feeling, that something is wrong, and not knowing what it is or how to fix it? Oh my god, that is "the brakes" being engaged. And that was just the beginning. That book de-mystified so much about situations I've been in, and others I have witnessed. It gave me the language to even THINK about what I was feeling, and why.
I like the brakes and accelerator figures of speech. They are clearly mechanical, but if we remember that they're metaphors then that choice meets most men and some women halfway in our tendencies to see or talk about sex and lots of things as mechanistic. Brakes are also synonymous with turn-offs and accelerators with turn-ons, but by avoiding those terms Nagoski pulled us a step away from our preconceived notions of what is or should be a turn-off or on. That worked for me.
What can make this tough is that a well adjusted person who doesn't define herself by how much sex she has might be perfectly content with little or no sex if she doesn't spontaneously desire it. So the onus is on him (me) to provide most of the motivation for her to do half the work. That's humbling in a way that is more brake than accelerator for me.
This used to be so easy. I'd say hello, and.........
Just realized my dots and smiley look kind of phallic. Not changing it, but that wasn't my intent. Or maybe it only looks phallic to me because I'm preoccupied
I like the brakes and accelerator figures of speech. They are clearly mechanical, but if we remember that they're metaphors then that choice meets most men and some women halfway in our tendencies to see or talk about sex and lots of things as mechanistic. Brakes are also synonymous with turn-offs and accelerators with turn-ons, but by avoiding those terms Nagoski pulled us a step away from our preconceived notions of what is or should be a turn-off or on. That worked for me.
What can make this tough is that a well adjusted person who doesn't define herself by how much sex she has might be perfectly content with little or no sex if she doesn't spontaneously desire it. So the onus is on him (me) to provide most of the motivation for her to do half the work. That's humbling in a way that is more brake than accelerator for me.
This used to be so easy. I'd say hello, and.........
Just realized my dots and smiley look kind of phallic. Not changing it, but that wasn't my intent. Or maybe it only looks phallic to me because I'm preoccupied
LOL!
I also think, sadly, that many expect that sex will continue to be as spontaneous and effortlessly passionate always, and for me and many others this just doesn't hold true.
Even in my relationship, which I think is fantastic, it takes somewhat more effort than it once did for me to be enthusiastically "in the mood" and we fall too easily into patterns that feel like ruts. We do the acts, in the sequence and style, that we know "works" because it is most comfortable and physically pleasing in familiar ways. We too easily lose some of the experimental and playful impulses, if we don't mindfully try to keep them alive. I think, "Why is it so silent in here, why doesn't he put on music, I should ask him to put on some music" and then for some reason what instantly follows is, "Why do I have to ask?" For every bit of effort that one of us could make to ask for something, share a thought or idea to do something different, there's the question of whether they are putting in more work than the other...it is a kind of mental trap, I think. One that leads to minimal effort from both parties, with minimal results.
Not to mention that when you commingle lives, and share life in the day-to-day sense, it is so very easy for a thousand other things to distract, interfere, and just make you tired. And there is always tomorrow... All of that. When you're "dating" (or relationshipping from a bit of a distance) going for a visit that presumably includes sex, is like stepping AWAY from lifey-life-life into a distinct headspace. Everything else can more easily be set aside.
So it boils down to a need to actually MAKE space for your sex life, and put mutual effort into keeping it interesting and active. If your expectation is that you won't have to make any of this effort, that it will always be natural and effortless as it was when you first met...I think that's a recipe for disappointment.
I'm thinking right now, of all the times I ever chased a man. And I have, believe me. I think that one of the factors that ignited that urge for me, was a sense of mystery, compared to the utter lack thereof in a long term established relationship. And you see, this kind of thinking is what we do in the kink community, we're thinking, "What was the ingredient that fired my engines, and how can I replicate that effect deliberately?" This is a thought I'll be mulling some more, but...not here.
Location: As of 2022….back to SoCal. OC this time!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJenkins602
Besides, sex out of obligation or a sense of debt? No thank you.
I don't like the idea of my girl having intercourse with me because she feels like she HAS TO or is feeling forced or coerced. I don't like "chore sex."
IMO...this is super rare....except maybe in older relationships or older couples that are super religious or have old outdated ways of thinking in stuff. Sexual equality & marital partnerships have been around awhile.....
Nobody owes their bodies to anyone.........
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