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Whenever I am tempted to paint all members of a single group with a broad brush I remember that this kind of thinking disrespects the individual and leads to bigotry. My admiration for Orwell keeps me in check, but Atheists like him are thin on the ground these days it seems.
It is with this in mind that I was pleased and inspired to learn about S.E. Cupp, a young conservative Atheist commentator who has recently written a book on the Liberal media's attack on Religion.
Keep in mind that those who spread propaganda about the Catholic Church are in "good company" -- after all the Nazis hated the Catholic Church and so does the KKK.
God bless all who know how to think for themselves -- including Atheists!
I understand that it is completely unfair to generalize any one group of people, but we're not talking about that- we're talking about the Catholic church, which is an ORGANIZATION. Much like government (or, in this case, A government in and of itself. It's THE wealthiest and most powerful organization in the world).
While no doubt when the topic of this church comes up, those who patronize said religion come up it's still mostly about the church itself and what it purports. Which is a LOT of *****....
There are many, many reasons why there is a countless number of people very ready (and quite able) to discredit the catholic church- and not just the "liberal" media. The catholic church has done innumerable reprehensible acts over a disturbingly vast span of decades, and has a history/penchant for acting in an unscrupulous and- for lack of better terms- just awful manner towards a good lot of humanity, and the decision-making MEN of said church have an extreme distaste for sensibility and reason. And personally, I'm glad that we have the information available nowadays so we can see this church- and others like it- for what they have done wrong, and have not done right, which allows US the choice to see them for the wealthy, all-powerful organization that they really are. Or NOT see, as the case may be...
This isn't the first time I've seen you become defensive about what you believe to be 'attacks' on the catholic church, Dreaming Spires, and no offense- I just find it curious. Though I hope you know that when me or someone else speaks ill of the catholic church, they are not necessarily attacking your personal faith or belief...if it is your faith- well, we may disagree, but I can't argue that point because your faith is your own (I've tried reason, in that regard with many others and I usually fail! ). But that doesn't seem to be the issue here...so what about the catholic church exactly are you defending?!
While I can't claim to understand many of the reasons ANYONE wishes to follow the doctrines of most organized religions, my lack of understanding of why love exists for the catholic church is probably at the forefront. And not just because of any of the basic tenets (although they do hold some curiosity!), it's only why and/or how someone would feel so compelled to defend such an institution itself. So I guess that's really the only issue I have here in commenting on Dreaming Spires' post. Carry on....
This is nothing new. Theists - particlarly Christians with their martyr - tradition - have alays squealed 'persecution' any time they have been called to account.
The challenge is growing and the dirty washing is coming out. The miracles are being exposed as fakes, the leaders are being exposed as frauds and that is going to underpin the inescapable fact that there is no good reason to believe in gods and religions.
I understand that it is completely unfair to generalize any one group of people, but we're not talking about that- we're talking about the Catholic church, which is an ORGANIZATION. Much like government (or, in this case, A government in and of itself. It's THE wealthiest and most powerful organization in the world).
While no doubt when the topic of this church comes up, those who patronize said religion come up it's still mostly about the church itself and what it purports. Which is a LOT of *****....
There are many, many reasons why there is a countless number of people very ready (and quite able) to discredit the catholic church- and not just the "liberal" media. The catholic church has done innumerable reprehensible acts over a disturbingly vast span of decades, and has a history/penchant for acting in an unscrupulous and- for lack of better terms- just awful manner towards a good lot of humanity, and the decision-making MEN of said church have an extreme distaste for sensibility and reason. And personally, I'm glad that we have the information available nowadays so we can see this church- and others like it- for what they have done wrong, and have not done right, which allows US the choice to see them for the wealthy, all-powerful organization that they really are. Or NOT see, as the case may be...
This isn't the first time I've seen you become defensive about what you believe to be 'attacks' on the catholic church, Dreaming Spires, and no offense- I just find it curious. Though I hope you know that when me or someone else speaks ill of the catholic church, they are not necessarily attacking your personal faith or belief...if it is your faith- well, we may disagree, but I can't argue that point because your faith is your own (I've tried reason, in that regard with many others and I usually fail! ). But that doesn't seem to be the issue here...so what about the catholic church exactly are you defending?!
While I can't claim to understand many of the reasons ANYONE wishes to follow the doctrines of most organized religions, my lack of understanding of why love exists for the catholic church is probably at the forefront. And not just because of any of the basic tenets (although they do hold some curiosity!), it's only why and/or how someone would feel so compelled to defend such an institution itself. So I guess that's really the only issue I have here in commenting on Dreaming Spires' post. Carry on....
Your lack of understanding about the Catholic Church is something I find equally puzzling. After all, to hate something or be disgusted by something is not the same thing as understanding it. And anyone who would make such a sweeping, inaccurate statement as this clearly has little or no understanding whatsoever of the Catholic Church as institution:
and the decision-making MEN of said church have an extreme distaste for sensibility and reason
The Catholic Church is the Church of Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, Maximillian Kolbe, Cardinal Newman (to be beatified Sunday, Deo Gratias!) and thousands of others about whom you apparently know nothing about. You seem like a nice person but your knowledge of Catholicism appears to be about 1 on a scale of 10.
I don't care if people reject Catholicism, but if they do, they should do so on its own terms and not base their rejection on lies and distortions.
As regards my "defense" of the Catholic Church as institution -- of course I will continue to speak up and try to educate people about it in the wake of the numerous distortions that exist and which are embraced regularly and with relish by so many here who wish to discredit it. Like I said -- they are in good company -- the Nazis and the KKK hate the Church too, and relished the opportunity to spread DISINFORMATION about it in the hope of misleading people like you and destroying it! If you understood anything about the Catholic Faith you would understand why I do this, so I guess it's no surprise that I leave you flummoxed.
I'm glad that S.E. Cupp feels compelled to do the same, even though she herself rejects Catholicism.
Last edited by DreamingSpires; 09-17-2010 at 04:17 AM..
Reason: clarity
It is an all out war on the Catholic Church. Why not? Only the Catholic Church authority that stands up for what is right. Our Christian separated brethren are so divided and without authority so they are impotent. It is the Catholic Church that bears the brunt of the relentless attack. The endgame is that once these billion people of the Church - it is Jesus' Church and we are part of it- are out of the way they can have free rein to breach morality with no check.
The secular authority that has usurped Gods authority knows the weak points of man. It is through the weak points of vice that man is controlled today. Every vice from sex, to drugs, to gambling to entertainment is used to control man without him evening knowing it. The cost is millions destroyed by drugs, millions of unborn killed to maintain a culture of degenerate, promiscuous sex. All the while people are loving their enslavement and will reach for the ad hominem if you take away their master. The secular authority plays the good cop to the Church's bad cop. This is how the world has been turned upside down, but few realize it. Then again try to take drugs away from the addict and he will not like you; regardless of your good intentions. It is only the Church really looking out for man and quietly the Church helps people- the sick and the poor all over the world. The good deeds mostly go unnoticed while the secular authorities provide the license and play the Church as the bad guy.
This is why the Church is endlessly attacked. Yes there was a significant homosexual presence in the clergy and this homosexual presence lead to a string of molestations. This was just the opening that the enemies so dearly desired. All it took were a few hundred boys over a period of 50 years. This is very wrong and I don't mean to marginalize the pain this caused. However it has been addressed. It continues to be grossly reported out of proportion to the amount of incidents. Why has this been in the news on a daily basis for the last 12 years? Day after day of ramming this issue down our throats. It is not like this is happening now. It is always some thing that happened 20-50 years ago; yet it is recycled to keep it fresh in peoples minds. This is a Church with 1 billion members. In context this was not a rampant abuse but isolated incidents. Since it is ideological war it is rammed down the people's throats on a daily basis. This is ideological warfare.
How many were molested in the secular world? How many are being molested now? Why don't we ever hear about this? If the media is so concerned with the welfare of the young why doesn't it report on the tens of thousands of girls raped in secular university every year? Why don't we hear about that? It is happening as we speak. What about the girls systematically chewed up and spit out by the porn/sex industry? Hooked on drugs at a young age, pushed to strip and have sex for money and likely dead in a few years. Why is this ignored? The short answer is that college date rape or women being pimped doesn't fit into the agenda of debasing the population - conversely the pimping helps debase the population so it continues unreported. The ideological subversion of destroying religion is driven home while these rapes and social causalities are given license to plunder.
Last edited by samyn on the green; 09-17-2010 at 05:31 AM..
It is an all out war on the Catholic Church. Why not? Only the Catholic Church that stands up for what is right.
The secular authority that has usurped Gods authority knows the weak points of man. It is through the weak points of vice that man is controlled today. Every vice from sex, to drugs, to gambling to entertainment is used to control man without him evening knowing it. The cost is millions destroyed by drugs, millions of unborn killed to maintain a culture of degenerate, promiscuous sex. All the while people are loving their enslavement and will reach for the ad hominem if you take away their master. The secular authority plays the good cop to the Church's bad cop. This is how the world has been turned upside down, but few realize it. Then again try to take drugs away from the addict and he will not like you; regardless of your good intentions. The secular authorities provide the license and play the Church as the bad guy.
This is why the Church is endlessly attacked. Yes there was a significant homosexual presence in the clergy and this homosexual presence lead to a string of molestations. The was just the opening that the enemies so dearly desired. All it took were a few hundred boys over a period of 50 years. This is very wrong and I don't mean to marginalize the pain this caused. However it has been addressed. Why has this been in the news on a daily basis for the last 12 years? Day after day of ramming this issue down our throats. It is not like this is happening now. It is always some thing that happened 20-50 years ago; yet it is recycled to keep it fresh in peoples minds. This is a Church with 1 billion members. In context this was not a rampant abuse but isolated incidents. Since it is ideological war it is rammed down the people's throats on a daily basis. This is ideological warfare.
How many were molested in the secular world? How many are being molested now? Why don't we ever hear about this? If the media is so concerned with the welfare of the young why doesn't it report on the tens of thousands of girls raped in secular university every year? Why don't we hear about that? It is happening as we speak. The short answer is that college date rape doesn't fit into the agenda of debasing the population, so the ideological subversion of destroying religion is driven home while these rapes are given license.
Yes, the Catholic Church has been infilitrated since its founding. The express purpose of those behind the infiltration was the destruction of the Roman Catholic Church through the most vile misuse of free will. Bella Dodd, a former communist who converted to Catholicism, wrote an entire book about this.
We as Catholics were warned about this at Fatima so we recognize it for what it is. Catholics who don't know their Faith or the Church's history are far more vulnerable to losing their Faith when faced with these horrors.
It is always vital that we keep an historical perspective on this.
Your lack of understanding about the Catholic Church is something I find equally puzzling. After all, to hate something or be disgusted by something is not the same thing as understanding it. And anyone who would make such a sweeping, inaccurate statement as this clearly has little or no understanding whatsoever of the Catholic Church as institution:
and the decision-making MEN of said church have an extreme distaste for sensibility and reason
The fact that you chose to highlight the point I made about MEN making all the decisions within the catholic church, and then go on about how I know nothing about said church is peculiar; there are NO women allowed within the elders of the catholic church. That is FACT. And, as we speak, there are many outpourings and movements, by women AND men who are trying to change that. Thank goodness- there may actually be hope for this church should they begin to take steps towards sensibility and spirituality instead of always backing away from it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
The Catholic Church is the Church of Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, Maximillian Kolbe, Cardinal Newman (to be beatified Sunday, Deo Gratias!) and thousands of others about whom you apparently know nothing about. You seem like a nice person but your knowledge of Catholicism appears to be about 1 on a scale of 10.
So right after highlighting what I said about there being ONLY men elders, here you went on to mention a list of NON women...of whom are no longer even alive...so I'm not sure what your point was regarding naming them, but as well, how is it that I know so little about your church when you go out of your way to outline something that I stated that is actually a fact, and then you go further by backing my point up yourself? ?!?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
I don't care if people reject Catholicism, but if they do, they should do so on its own terms, not on lies and distortions.
As regards my "defense" of the Catholic Church as institution -- of course I will continue to speak up and try to educate people about it in the wake of the numerous distortions that exist and which are embraced regularly and with relish by so many here who wish to discredit it. Like I said -- they are in good company -- the Nazis and the KKK hate the Church too! If you understood anything about the Catholic Faith you would understand why I do this, so I guess it's no surprise that I leave you flummoxed.
I'm glad that S.E. Cupp feels compelled to do the same, even though she herself rejects Catholicism.
I never said I hated, nor that I was disgusted by the catholic church (though you are right, I am, and I kind of do. Perhaps you just read me well but please, do not put words in my mouth)...at any rate, I DO discredit the catholic church on its own terms, and not lies and distortions. There is no distorting the fact that the church still expects the clergy to be MALE only, and remain celibate, no distorting the fact that, because of the aforementioned, there have been countless incidences of pedophilia/rape towards innocents. Nor that the Pope himself has prescribed against such things as safe-sex in some of the less civilized countries where AIDS is rampant, nor all the other countless bass-ackwards rules and regulations that still exist within the confines of the male-based clergy of the catholic church. These are only a few of the reasons, and I am loathe to name more.
As for the KKK- they are christian. Or claim to be, anyway- and I believe they're about as christian as a lot of other people "claim" to be. Maybe not all of them are catholic but I can tell you- unfortunately- from personal experience, I know that there are enough catholic KKK members out there. Who go to catholic church, confession and do the whole baloney nine yards- just like a whole lot of hypocrites that exist within most any other religion as well, to the same degree/percentage no doubt.
And as for the Nazis and the catholic church; while you may be right, there were not "supposed" to be any ties between the two, believe it- there are plenty of links. Ones that link the Vatican to the Nazi movement and even so far as the defense thereof. Don't think for a moment that an organization as powerful as the catholic church, based where it was in Europe in the 30's didn't do that which would preserve itself best and strongest, and wouldn't stoop to doing terrible things or instructing others to do terrible things. So please- don't act like you know all facets of the catholic church because, despite how educated you most likely are about your church- there are plenty of splinters who represent and ARE your church, and perhaps act so in a way that you would not defend.
That's all I'm trying to say, and as much as you think I'm making a sweeping generalization about my distaste for the church- you are making just as sweeping a generalization in your defense of it. Cheers.
The fact that you chose to highlight the point I made about MEN making all the decisions within the catholic church, and then go on about how I know nothing about said church is peculiar; there are NO women allowed within the elders of the catholic church. That is FACT. And, as we speak, there are many outpourings and movements, by women AND men who are trying to change that. Thank goodness- there may actually be hope for this church should they begin to take steps towards sensibility and spirituality instead of always backing away from it.
So right after highlighting what I said about there being ONLY men elders, here you went on to mention a list of NON women...of whom are no longer even alive...so I'm not sure what your point was regarding naming them, but as well, how is it that I know so little about your church when you go out of your way to outline something that I stated that is actually a fact, and then you go further by backing my point up yourself? ?!?
I never said I hated, nor that I was disgusted by the catholic church (though you are right, I am, and I kind of do. Perhaps you just read me well but please, do not put words in my mouth)...at any rate, I DO discredit the catholic church on its own terms, and not lies and distortions. There is no distorting the fact that the church still expects the clergy to be MALE only, and remain celibate, no distorting the fact that, because of the aforementioned, there have been countless incidences of pedophilia/rape towards innocents. Nor that the Pope himself has prescribed against such things as safe-sex in some of the less civilized countries where AIDS is rampant, nor all the other countless bass-ackwards rules and regulations that still exist within the confines of the male-based clergy of the catholic church. These are only a few of the reasons, and I am loathe to name more.
As for the KKK- they are christian. Or claim to be, anyway- and I believe they're about as christian as a lot of other people "claim" to be. Maybe not all of them are catholic but I can tell you- unfortunately- from personal experience, I know that there are enough catholic KKK members out there. Who go to catholic church, confession and do the whole baloney nine yards- just like a whole lot of hypocrites that exist within most any other religion as well, to the same degree/percentage no doubt.
And as for the Nazis and the catholic church; while you may be right, there were not "supposed" to be any ties between the two, believe it- there are plenty of links. Ones that link the Vatican to the Nazi movement and even so far as the defense thereof. Don't think for a moment that an organization as powerful as the catholic church, based where it was in Europe in the 30's didn't do that which would preserve itself best and strongest, and wouldn't stoop to doing terrible things or instructing others to do terrible things. So please- don't act like you know all facets of the catholic church because, despite how educated you most likely are about your church- there are plenty of splinters who represent and ARE your church, and perhaps act so in a way that you would not defend.
That's all I'm trying to say, and as much as you think I'm making a sweeping generalization about my distaste for the church- you are making just as sweeping a generalization in your defense of it. Cheers.
Thanks for confirming the reasonable inference I made based on the contents of what you have written about the Roman Catholic Church. I wouldn't have characterized you this way unless I was confident my characterization was an accurate one.
As regards your attempts to "discredit the Catholic Church on its own terms" -- the claim that you do so is undermined by your lack of understanding, based on what you have written above, about the reasons for an all-male clergy and the reasons for celibacy (which, unlike the all-male clergy, is a discipline and not dogma, and may therefore be changed at some point in the future). You obviously lack even a basic understanding of Church teachings on these matters.
You might be surprised to know that there are some very strong radical (as in Andrea Dworkin-radical) feminists who are devout (orthodox) Roman Catholics.
i never said there were not "links between Nazism and members of the Catholic Church." There were Catholics who collaborated with the Nazis. Nazism itself, however, was a neo-pagan, Gnostic movement which sought to destroy monotheism. They started with the Jews because the Jews were the smallest group and planned to go after the Protestants next. They saw the Catholic Church as the most powerful, unified monotheistic institution and knew it would be much harder to destroy than European Jewry and the various Protestant sects.
Finally, I am not condoning, nor am I personally responsible for, SINS (including mortal sins) committed by individuals who CLAIM to be Roman Catholic yet ignore the very clear moral teachings of the Magisterium, and this includes many practicing Roman Catholics. They are known as "hypocrites" and absent an extraordinary conversion experience, are most likely headed straight for Hell.
Whenever I am tempted to paint all members of a single group with a broad brush I remember that this kind of thinking disrespects the individual and leads to bigotry. My admiration for Orwell keeps me in check, but Atheists like him are thin on the ground these days it seems.
It is with this in mind that I was pleased and inspired to learn about S.E. Cupp, a young conservative Atheist commentator who has recently written a book on the Liberal media's attack on Religion.
Keep in mind that those who spread propaganda about the Catholic Church are in "good company" -- after all the Nazis hated the Catholic Church and so does the KKK.
God bless all who know how to think for themselves -- including Atheists!
Great, well here's some "thinking-for-myself" then, from an athiest:
It's ironic (and probably hypocritical) that in the very thread you admonish us to guard against "painting all members of a single group with a broad brush", you hold members of the KKK and Nazi party out for public ridicule.
Don' you know there were good Nazis, and even good members of the KKK? (And hey, you all hate gays, so you have that in common.)
This is nothing new. Theists - particlarly Christians with their martyr - tradition - have always squealed 'persecution' any time they have been called to account.
Theists and Christians are large groups that often don't agree with each other. Besides which oftentimes we call "persecution" because we actually are you know persecuted. In Burma, in Sudan, in China, in North Korea, and several others. If we mean Catholics specifically there are several former Soviets that deem Catholicism an "alien religion" and persecute it. If we mean Evangelicals many of the harshest Muslim nations persecute them as conversion from Islam is discouraged.
Even in the US hate crimes against Christian groups, by any actual estimate (atheist statements of "I know we receive more hate crimes than that, look at how disliked the polls place us" are not actual estimates), are more common than those directed at atheists or agnostics. That these are often intra-Christian attacks is true, but doesn't change that some Christians do face hostility even here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
The challenge is growing and the dirty washing is coming out. The miracles are being exposed as fakes, the leaders are being exposed as frauds and that is going to underpin the inescapable fact that there is no good reason to believe in gods and religions.
I used to consider you about the most reasonable atheist here. Although considering low the bar is maybe you'd still count.
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). But that doesn't seem to be the issue here...so what about the catholic church exactly are you defending?!