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After a brief discussion of this topic with christians on the christianity board, I thought I would open up the question to a wider audience.
For those who are christians, how do you justify and explain the concept of predestination? As an atheist, I have always been fascinated by christians who hold this belief (I know that not all do). Specifically, I am referring here NOT to the belief that god knows what is going to happen (i.e. humans technically have free will but god just knows ahead what they are going to do/choose), but to the belief that god has predestined people's lives, i.e. some are chosen and others are not.
If people are chosen ahead of time as god's favorites, i.e. those who will
do "great" things and ultimately be saved, and those who will turn away from god and be lost, what is the point of prayer, mission work etc. If god has the whole game already intricately planned, what is the point?
Have you ever noticed that those who claim to be chosen by predestination are the first ones to believe that and then spend the rest of their lives trying to convince others?.. interesting is it not.
Have you ever noticed that those who claim to be chosen by predestination are the first ones to believe that and then spend the rest of their lives trying to convince others?.. interesting is it not.
Yes, it is, and I have yet to get a good explanation of it. The reasoning I have seen has all been in the line of "mysterious ways" or that it's god's free gift and after all, we're not entitled to anything.
Yes, it is, and I have yet to get a good explanation of it. The reasoning I have seen has all been in the line of "mysterious ways" or that it's god's free gift and after all, we're not entitled to anything.
So far, very unsatisfying.
And that is exactly why I do not believe in predestination, in a religious sense, we as individuals are capable of determining our own destination it's just a matter of choices, the choices that we make throughout life is what determines our destiny, whether they be good choices or bad choices, ultimately the choice is ours to make.
Pre-destined meaning, god has laid the path for us to follow before the foundation of the earth. Seeing god knows all before it happens , he knows who will believe and who will not. This- being our choice of free will, our lord doesnt pick some and not others, altho he sometime makes changes in some example with when saul was persecuting the christians, also hardens the hearts of some for his own glory. His desire is all to be saved, you were put on this earth to have a relationship with him , but because we are born into sin, our lord jesus who never sinned, took all the sins of the world away so we may have everlasting life. Christ died for ALL so that we may live , one must be invited as a believer of christ you will know when it happens!
In Islam, God ultimately knows each person's fate but that does not mean that free will doesn't exist. The person doesn't know and he is given the choice of choosing the path to take. I think except for the prophets and messengers chosen by him, God doesn't play favorites.
Predestination is very subjective. A person who had lived in sin for almost all his life and then suddenly makes a 360-turn towards good just before he dies - is that predestination or his own will overcoming his weakness and turning towards good. Same goes for the hero turned villain...
Of course, the major difference btwn Islam & Christianity is that muslims believe no one is born into sin. A newborn is like a white cloth which will be coloured by the parents beliefs, prejudices etc.
Well, to the best of my understanding, you are talking about the presbyterians here, this pre-destined thing is only that there is a path, you may follow it if you wish, but it is not like it is carved in stone.
Yes, it is, and I have yet to get a good explanation of it. The reasoning I have seen has all been in the line of "mysterious ways" or that it's god's free gift and after all, we're not entitled to anything.
So far, very unsatisfying.
yeah, i see the poker faces all around saying just that.
There is no free will with predestination. If you were created not to believe then that's not really free will is it?
However I am willing to entertain that perhaps my understanding of the terms are flawed.
I think Arcane is right. Calvinistic predestination logically excludes free will. Are there people who still believe in predestination? Really?
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