Fascinating! No Egyptian documentation of the events described in Exodus? (contradictions, Lord)
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Really and how about the cities that didn't exist at that time? Or groups of people who didn't also exist? Or the fact that early israeli culture was non Egyptian. Seems like a lot of it was fabricated.
I heard a very interesting lecture at Hebrew Union University that Israelite culture is virtually indistinguishable from Canaanite culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
The story of the Exodus is like a combination lock. ALL the tumblers have to line up in order to open the lock. And those land marks have to be found in an accurate sequence. And when you consider the number of such.
And that's why it fails. Because the evidence just isn't there. Even christians say so, and worse than that, the Jews say so.
I mean, how sad can it get when Jews admit their own Exodus was fabricated?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
Then you will understand, that this is something that cannot be fabricated. Now if you don't want to consider the evidence or the written word. Then what can one say? It's like finding a treasure map, and then saying. "Well, I don't believe the map and it's 20 paces. I believe it was 100 paces". You have to follow the information given, or there is no reason to follow anything at all. Do you not agree?
A fanatical christian just like you, who was an archaeologist tried to prove the Exodus and failed.
Your "written word" says 16 cities were destroyed by the Israelites during the Exodus.
Archaeology says only 3 of those 16 cities were destroyed, and there's no evidence they were destroyed by the Israelites (although again in one instance the evidence is very compelling -- so I'll give you the one city).
Archaeology says 7 of the 16 cities were either not inhabited, or not destroyed at all, and those 7 cities include Jericho, Ai and Gibeon.
And based on those 10 cities your fanatical christian archaeologist chum located, you have no choice whatsoever but to accept the circa 1425 date as the date of the Exodus.
You bible is a fail, and so is your Exodus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
Who sold you that line? I bet someone who does not believe the Bible. I have been around for some 60 years. And I have yet to see anything that could discount the Scriptures. Yet some folks believe statements like that.
I don't even know how to retort to something like that.
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
BTW, I heard last night on an unrelated radio show that the Egyptians have DOCUMENTED the lineage of Pharoahs back 7,000+ (let me spell that one out... Seven Thousand!) years. Academics on Egyptology grant that the first few dozen of those Pharaohs may have been mythological (apparently those scholars, unlike our Christian ones, can and do maintain an open mind to all possibilities...) , but most, if not possibly, all of them, were actual and real.
I would take that with a grain of salt, especially if it comes from Dr. HaHa-ass. Egyptian archaeologist is an oxymoron like "honorable villain." Egypt is the oldest continuous existing civilization, for more than 5,000 years and the only thing they have to show for it is 3 pyramids, a sphinx, and the falafel.
Take away the pyramids and sphinx and Egypt's only tangible contribution to the world is the falafel.
I would be embarrassed to admit that.
The 1st Dynasty were not Egyptians. If they were Egyptians, then everyone after them cannot be Egyptians.
Narmer, Aha, Djer, Djet and Den are not "Egyptian" names. Linguistically, it's a huge puzzle. You can rule out Mesopotamia. Some have suggested Harappa/Indus Valley as the origin of the first peoples in Egypt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
Strangely, none of those other cultures noticed a globally inundating flood, no Star of Bethlehem, no Adam and Eve story (after all, the Asians and Egyptians had already been around and writing for several milennia prior to that funny little local story).
The Sumerians do have an Adam & Eve story that the Hebrews copied and perverted.
There are 142 cultures that acknowledge a globally inundating disaster.
Out of those 142 cultures, only 3 claim the flood was a punishment delivered by a god-thing (and yes the idiot goat-herding Hebrews are one of the three).
For the remaining 139 cultures, the Deluge was either attributed to a cataclysmic event originating on Earth, a cataclysmic event originating from space, or the origin is unknown.
With the possible exception of the Hebrews, all cultures date the Deluge to the "Age of the Lion" which is a reference to the Age of Leo which would be sometime between 10,000 BCE and 8,000 BCE depending the order of the constellations you follow and how you calculate the phenomenon of precession.
There is a startling difference between eastern and western cultures. That is the eastern cultures, those centered around Mesopotamia and MENA (the Middle East/North Africa) attribute the flood to god-things or unknown origins.
Yet, western cultures associate it with the "Great Water Star," "Water Star," "Water Comet," "Flaming Star," "Flaming Arrow," "Burning Rock" and a dozens of other similar epithets that suggest it was a small meteor strike.
That of course suggests that the path of the meteor entered over the north polar region in eastern Siberia close to the Bearing Strait and traveled on a southeasterly course where it was visible along the western and mid-western areas of the US and the western areas of South America (where all of those cultures are located).
The meteor is believe to have struck the western ice sheet causing it's total destruction and sending tsunamis across most of the globe. That the western ice sheet has an age of not more than 8,000 years supports that, as does the sea level rising 600 to 800 feet.
There are also numerous "ghost beaches" around the globe, these are areas at very high altitudes that have huge deposits of sand. There are two sites in Mexico City and nearby in the mountains. The Gobi Desert is another phenomenon. It isn't a desert, it's just an area where the topsoil has been stripped away to the bedrock, and the boulders, large rocks, rocks and stones have been arrayed from heaviest to lightest, which is typical for action by water.
And then numerous places were flora and fauna are mixed together that shouldn't be there, like on the island in the White Sea where animals not native to Siberia have all been dumped there.
The Hebrew version is the only version that claims the Deluge lasted more than 6 days, and then we can't even be sure what the Hebrews were yakking about since at one point the say it lasted 120 days, and then the bible contradicts itself when it claims it took 365 days.
That does not in any way prove the "bible" version, since the Hebrews copied their Deluge story from the Sumerians, and then in typical fashion, didn't understand it and butchered it, then modified it for political and social reasons.
Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this) when the sons of God were having sexual relations with the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children. They were the mighty heroes of old, the famous men.
"and also after this" means "after the Deluge.
Leave it to Yahweh to be a total failure and loser.
He supposedly unleashes a global flood to kill everyone, then doesn't even kill the very people who are supposed to be the root cause of the problems.
Genesis 7:23 So the Lord destroyed every living thing that was on the surface of the ground, including people, animals, creatures that creep along the ground, and birds of the sky. They were wiped off the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark survived.
Okay.
Numbers 13:33 We even saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak came from the Nephilim), and we seemed liked grasshoppers both to ourselves and to them.”
The descendants of Anak came from the Nephilim
therefore: the Nephilim survived the "Flood."
The Nephilim survived the Flood
Therefore: Noah and his sons were not the only ones who survived.
That makes Genesis 7:23 a blatantly false statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paganmama80
Actually no....the the stele shows Israel was a tribe of people at that time and not a state. A population estimate based on pottery puts the number of people there at between 5000-10000. Quite the empire they had huh?
At the time the Kingdom of Israel was destroyed, Jerusalem, the capital of the Kingdom of Judah and the former capital of all the tribal territories was a rinky-dinky podunk back-water down of a mere 12 acres of land and a population of less than 1,000 people.
That's your "huge" capital city from where David and Solomon ruled.
12 measly acres. Other kingdoms had palaces bigger than 12 acres.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paganmama80
Lets not also forget tha the ammonites the moabites and the edomites didn't even exist as people at this time.
Yes, and let's not forget the other contradictions. It claims the Moabites did some terrible deed and then later it claims it was the Midianites who did that terrible deed.
Looks like Yahoo is too stupid to keep track of who'd doing what.
However that is evidence you have two separate source documents based on two separate religious traditions that were merged.
Hence the need for the Exodus Trilogy to merge those two source documents together.
I can only hope that in his lifetime, they find either the 'J' or 'E' source document.
That would pretty much cause the total collapse of christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paganmama80
Manetheo also states that the hyskos ruled egypt for 500 years so his history might be a tad stretched. While in theory a person named moses could exsist, the truth is the exodus didn't happen the way the bible states.
Moses isn't a name.
Moses is a suffix rendered ms-s and means "from emanated."
Moses' name was originally prefixed with the name of god whom later Hebrews no doubt found offensive and struck from the texts.
If the Hebrews would engage in wholesale forgery, what else might they do?
Maybe write in the name of Yahoo in place of Enki, Enlil, Ninurta, Ningishzida, Nergal? Sure, absolutely.
The very original story of Sodom and Gomorrah was Erra and the Howler, Erra and the Deadly Wind, or Ninurta, Nergal and the 7 Awesome Weapons of Destruction (Erra is the Akkadian name for Nergal).
That was written at the time of Abrahm, but not by Abrahm. Later the Hebrews appropriated the story and adopted it into their culture, changing the names of Ninurta and Nergal to elohim (gods) or writing in Yahoo in place of each them throughout the story.
I heard a very interesting lecture at Hebrew Union University that Israelite culture is virtually indistinguishable from Canaanite culture.
Yes besides the shift in housing everything remained the same. We are finding that the had a similar diet, worshiped the same gods,had the same pottery styles, etc etc. They show no trace of spending hundreds of years in eygpt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Archaeology says only 3 of those 16 cities were destroyed, and there's no evidence they were destroyed by the Israelites (although again in one instance the evidence is very compelling -- so I'll give you the one city).
And one gezer shows signs of a revolt and not an invasion. So if that is the one you are talking about then you can't even give him that one . And let's not forget they were all destroyed over a 100 year period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Yes, and let's not forget the other contradictions. It claims the Moabites did some terrible deed and then later it claims it was the Midianites who did that terrible deed.
Yeah like the double creation tale and the double flood tale.
Last edited by paganmama80; 11-21-2010 at 06:06 PM..
Moses' name was originally prefixed with the name of god whom later Hebrews no doubt found offensive and struck from the texts.
If the Hebrews would engage in wholesale forgery, what else might they do?
Maybe write in the name of Yahoo in place of Enki, Enlil, Ninurta, Ningishzida, Nergal? Sure, absolutely.
The very original story of Sodom and Gomorrah was Erra and the Howler, Erra and the Deadly Wind, or Ninurta, Nergal and the 7 Awesome Weapons of Destruction (Erra is the Akkadian name for Nergal).
That was written at the time of Abrahm, but not by Abrahm. Later the Hebrews appropriated the story and adopted it into their culture, changing the names of Ninurta and Nergal to elohim (gods) or writing in Yahoo in place of each them throughout the story.
Yes i know that, i am refering to a possible person who he might be based on however. There could in theory been a leader of a tribe who worshiped the desert god yahweh who was the model for the later moses is all i meant.
At the time the Kingdom of Israel was destroyed, Jerusalem, the capital of the Kingdom of Judah and the former capital of all the tribal territories was a rinky-dinky podunk back-water down of a mere 12 acres of land and a population of less than 1,000 people.
That's your "huge" capital city from where David and Solomon ruled.
12 measly acres. Other kingdoms had palaces bigger than 12 acres.
Well this is currently in debate, and until the low chronology *Which is starting to be proven i might add* is accepted we still can't totally with this as gospel truth *no pun intended. But since chances are it will be it throws the idea of the empire of david and soloman out the window.
Well first of all Diodorus Siculus wrote about an extraordinary ancient report about the tribes in Egypt (AND THE MIRACULOUS DRYING UP OF THE RED SEA). You forgot to mention that the waters that dried up were related to the Red Sea. Many of these inscriptions are understood today. So you can't dismiss what is know about them today. And few who oppose the Bible will be interested in such evidence. So naturally only the believers will be pointing out such things to you. And I could make the same stupid arguement. Until Christian believers post evidence supporting evolution. Until you post that type of stuff no one will ever take you serious.
You can have Christian believers all you want to post proof and i will listen when they are actual educated men. This is why no one takes your posts serious....because you use the argument "well only believers would believe this anyway" to justify the use of pseudo archaeologists or scientists as experts. And the difference between that and evolution is, is that evolution is a proven idea, biblical history is not. And i have red Diogorus Siculus my friend and that account says nothing about the exodus only the drying of the red sea....of which they didn't cross anyway. No inscription from antiquity proves the exodus...so i don't know what you are talking about there. So link me to an actual report and not some Christian website that talks about these inscriptions and the nature of them. You know what i don't care if the dig was funded by a church even....but i want professionals to be the ones you are citing....people with real PhD's in the subject matter.
I heard a very interesting lecture at Hebrew Union University that Israelite culture is virtually indistinguishable from Canaanite culture.
And that's why it fails. Because the evidence just isn't there. Even christians say so, and worse than that, the Jews say so.
I mean, how sad can it get when Jews admit their own Exodus was fabricated?
A fanatical christian just like you, who was an archaeologist tried to prove the Exodus and failed.
Your "written word" says 16 cities were destroyed by the Israelites during the Exodus.
Archaeology says only 3 of those 16 cities were destroyed, and there's no evidence they were destroyed by the Israelites (although again in one instance the evidence is very compelling -- so I'll give you the one city).
Archaeology says 7 of the 16 cities were either not inhabited, or not destroyed at all, and those 7 cities include Jericho, Ai and Gibeon.
And based on those 10 cities your fanatical christian archaeologist chum located, you have no choice whatsoever but to accept the circa 1425 date as the date of the Exodus.
You bible is a fail, and so is your Exodus.
I don't even know how to retort to something like that.
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
I would take that with a grain of salt, especially if it comes from Dr. HaHa-ass. Egyptian archaeologist is an oxymoron like "honorable villain." Egypt is the oldest continuous existing civilization, for more than 5,000 years and the only thing they have to show for it is 3 pyramids, a sphinx, and the falafel.
Take away the pyramids and sphinx and Egypt's only tangible contribution to the world is the falafel.
I would be embarrassed to admit that.
The 1st Dynasty were not Egyptians. If they were Egyptians, then everyone after them cannot be Egyptians.
Narmer, Aha, Djer, Djet and Den are not "Egyptian" names. Linguistically, it's a huge puzzle. You can rule out Mesopotamia. Some have suggested Harappa/Indus Valley as the origin of the first peoples in Egypt.
The Sumerians do have an Adam & Eve story that the Hebrews copied and perverted.
There are 142 cultures that acknowledge a globally inundating disaster.
Out of those 142 cultures, only 3 claim the flood was a punishment delivered by a god-thing (and yes the idiot goat-herding Hebrews are one of the three).
For the remaining 139 cultures, the Deluge was either attributed to a cataclysmic event originating on Earth, a cataclysmic event originating from space, or the origin is unknown.
With the possible exception of the Hebrews, all cultures date the Deluge to the "Age of the Lion" which is a reference to the Age of Leo which would be sometime between 10,000 BCE and 8,000 BCE depending the order of the constellations you follow and how you calculate the phenomenon of precession.
There is a startling difference between eastern and western cultures. That is the eastern cultures, those centered around Mesopotamia and MENA (the Middle East/North Africa) attribute the flood to god-things or unknown origins.
Yet, western cultures associate it with the "Great Water Star," "Water Star," "Water Comet," "Flaming Star," "Flaming Arrow," "Burning Rock" and a dozens of other similar epithets that suggest it was a small meteor strike.
That of course suggests that the path of the meteor entered over the north polar region in eastern Siberia close to the Bearing Strait and traveled on a southeasterly course where it was visible along the western and mid-western areas of the US and the western areas of South America (where all of those cultures are located).
The meteor is believe to have struck the western ice sheet causing it's total destruction and sending tsunamis across most of the globe. That the western ice sheet has an age of not more than 8,000 years supports that, as does the sea level rising 600 to 800 feet.
There are also numerous "ghost beaches" around the globe, these are areas at very high altitudes that have huge deposits of sand. There are two sites in Mexico City and nearby in the mountains. The Gobi Desert is another phenomenon. It isn't a desert, it's just an area where the topsoil has been stripped away to the bedrock, and the boulders, large rocks, rocks and stones have been arrayed from heaviest to lightest, which is typical for action by water.
And then numerous places were flora and fauna are mixed together that shouldn't be there, like on the island in the White Sea where animals not native to Siberia have all been dumped there.
The Hebrew version is the only version that claims the Deluge lasted more than 6 days, and then we can't even be sure what the Hebrews were yakking about since at one point the say it lasted 120 days, and then the bible contradicts itself when it claims it took 365 days.
That does not in any way prove the "bible" version, since the Hebrews copied their Deluge story from the Sumerians, and then in typical fashion, didn't understand it and butchered it, then modified it for political and social reasons.
Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this) when the sons of God were having sexual relations with the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children. They were the mighty heroes of old, the famous men.
"and also after this" means "after the Deluge.
Leave it to Yahweh to be a total failure and loser.
He supposedly unleashes a global flood to kill everyone, then doesn't even kill the very people who are supposed to be the root cause of the problems.
Genesis 7:23 So the Lord destroyed every living thing that was on the surface of the ground, including people, animals, creatures that creep along the ground, and birds of the sky. They were wiped off the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark survived.
Okay.
Numbers 13:33 We even saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak came from the Nephilim), and we seemed liked grasshoppers both to ourselves and to them.”
The descendants of Anak came from the Nephilim
therefore: the Nephilim survived the "Flood."
The Nephilim survived the Flood
Therefore: Noah and his sons were not the only ones who survived.
That makes Genesis 7:23 a blatantly false statement.
At the time the Kingdom of Israel was destroyed, Jerusalem, the capital of the Kingdom of Judah and the former capital of all the tribal territories was a rinky-dinky podunk back-water down of a mere 12 acres of land and a population of less than 1,000 people.
That's your "huge" capital city from where David and Solomon ruled.
12 measly acres. Other kingdoms had palaces bigger than 12 acres.
Yes, and let's not forget the other contradictions. It claims the Moabites did some terrible deed and then later it claims it was the Midianites who did that terrible deed.
Looks like Yahoo is too stupid to keep track of who'd doing what.
However that is evidence you have two separate source documents based on two separate religious traditions that were merged.
Hence the need for the Exodus Trilogy to merge those two source documents together.
I can only hope that in his lifetime, they find either the 'J' or 'E' source document.
That would pretty much cause the total collapse of christianity.
Moses isn't a name.
Moses is a suffix rendered ms-s and means "from emanated."
Moses' name was originally prefixed with the name of god whom later Hebrews no doubt found offensive and struck from the texts.
If the Hebrews would engage in wholesale forgery, what else might they do?
Maybe write in the name of Yahoo in place of Enki, Enlil, Ninurta, Ningishzida, Nergal? Sure, absolutely.
The very original story of Sodom and Gomorrah was Erra and the Howler, Erra and the Deadly Wind, or Ninurta, Nergal and the 7 Awesome Weapons of Destruction (Erra is the Akkadian name for Nergal).
That was written at the time of Abrahm, but not by Abrahm. Later the Hebrews appropriated the story and adopted it into their culture, changing the names of Ninurta and Nergal to elohim (gods) or writing in Yahoo in place of each them throughout the story.
How sad can it get when the Jews don't believe in the Exodus? If you knew anything of the Scriptures you would understand that God was totally disgusted with the Jewish race. From their very beginning they denied God. The fact that they do not believe Him now was predicted longago. And the evidence for the Exodus is to be found everywhere at the real crossing site. Yet like most Bible discoveries, it is being ignored.
Good grief...You will believe anything except the truth that many posters here try to share with you.
You have set yourself up to be the world's foremost expert on the bible and discount everything but your own twisted interpretations. I'm still waiting to see you admit that you could be mistaken about, well anything at all.
Embrace the cognitive dissonance; suspend all disbelief; wallow in the delusions; eagerly accept all hoaxes as genuine proven fact; ignore all laws of science and nature; show contempt for anything that doesn't fit the bible fairy tale story. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Well that would be like saying a building has nothing to do with a structure. Or the Bible has nothing to do with faith. Your comment makes absolutely no sense. Those who would challenged the translation would be in a very small minority. This is really nothing more then you expressing your unbelief. And has nothing to do with the reality of the case. The topic was about Egyptian documentation of the Exodus. And the inscription written on the shores of the Red Sea , matches the Biblical account. And it was written in Egyptian hieroglyphics, and Hebrew letters. And because it was written in hieroglyphics, it would have to of been written sometime near the actual event. And these same inscriptions were spoken of by Diodorus Siculus in 10 B.C. who stated the writings were considered ancient in his time. So this is not some modern invention.
I think it is your comment that makes no sense. All I am saying is that I am getting very little information about it and what I get is open to question. 10 BC is a long time after the supposed events and really no more proves an exodus than does your Solomon's pillar (if the thing ever existed) or for that matter being written down in the Bible proves it.
It would be helpful if this alleged photo appeared, but it won't. Either it was classified, so the guy that claimed it exists never saw it OR it never existed at all. Either way, I am incredulous that the individual who posted this claim calls what I know to be fact "my belief". I am amazed that he will continue to believe the words of a liar who makes thing up to support a faith item. I am offended that the individual listens to the words of a liar instead of someone who actually works with the program in question. I am astounded that the individual cannot see facts from people like globalsecurity.org, who BTW is an offshoot of the Federation of American Scientists and a military watchdog, and not be able to say, "Wow, I did not know that."
No, I can no longer be bothered with this topic nor the individual. There is an old saying, "Comanches have a short fuse when dealing with fools." I shall take the lead of other who have decided to put the individual on ignore.
But the fact is that the web is full of these claims based on 'authorities' (you will see they are pretty ancient ones if not actually antique) and to fail to counter them hands them the game uncontested. Remember, Once the falsity of these claims is exposed one it is exposed for ever. It may take a long time to find out that Chwg doesn't mean globe or that Quirinus was not in Syria in herod's time, but, once done it can be posted as refutation in minutes.
These claims are pretty much derived from this site:
which is pretty much misreported by C34. Diodorus mentions an ancient altar and does not talk of the inscriptions. Endorsement of his claims turn out to be by a Byzantine historian and an 17th century Irish priest.
However, there are photos and these show carvings on rocks and some are evidently in Greek or latin. I can't see what they have to do with a graveyard. So I can see that a lot of snippits have been mined out of context and presented in a way to make it look as though they were from the Exodus jews. Showing up that that this is simply untenable naturally causes Campbell to lash out with accusations of 'unbelief' at someone who is just trying to get to the bottom of it.
This same material crops up time an again and campbell does not discuss or research it but simply rewrites it as a precis supporting his beliefs.
*Joseph and the Seven Years of Famine
In the Nineteenth century an inscription was discovered on a marble tablet in a ruined fortress on the seashore of Hadramaut in present-day Democratic Yemen which confirmed the reign of Jospeh and the seven years of plenty followed by seven years of famine (Genesis 41). It was written around the eighteenth century BC which was the time the Biblical account took place. The inscription was translated into Arabic by Professor Schultens and later translated into English by Rev. Charles Forster. A part of the inscription stated the following:
"We dwelt in this castle seven years of good life—how difficult for memory its description! Then came years barren and burnt up: when one evil year had passed away, then came another to succeed it. And we became as though we had never seen a glimpse of good."309/42-43
Further evidence was found in Yemen in a rich woman’s tomb. It was discovered in 1850 after being exposed due to a flood. it was later shown to a Mr. Cruttenden by Ebn Hesham, an Arab from Yemen.
In the tomb was contained a woman’s corpse that was covered in jewels and a coffer filled with treasure. Also found was an engraved stone tablet confirming the seven years of famine in Egypt and Joseph’s supervision over the graineries of Egypt. The inscription said some of the following:
"In your name O God, the God of Hamyar, I Tajah, the daughter of Dzu Shefar, sent my steward to Joseph, and he delaying to return to me, I sent my hand maid with a measure of silver, to bring me back a measure of flour: and not being able to procure it, I sent her with a measure of gold: and not being able to procure it, I sent her with a measure of pearls: And not being able to procure it, I commanded them to be ground: and finding no profit in them, I am shut up here."310/44-45 "
The first thing one wonders is whatever the Yemen had to do with Joseph? Joseph or similar names are not uncommon in Jewish or arab language. Also one cannot rule out the "Yes, I tell the infidel what he wants to hear" syndrome. One simply has to have some confirmation.
*Egyptian Priest-Scholars Confirm
Joseph’s & Moses’ Leadership
of the Jewish Race
Josephus in Josephus Against Apion. I, 26, 27, 32 mentions two Egyptian priest-scholars: Manetho and Cheremon who in their histories of Egypt specifically named Joseph and Moses as leaders of the Jewish race. Josephus states that Manetho and Cheremon stated that the Jews rejected Egypt’s customs and gods. They noted that the Jews practiced animal sacrifices which they witnessed on the first Passover. These historians also confirmed that the Israelites migrated to "southern Syria" which was the Egyptian name for Palestine. They also mentioned that Israel’s exodus occured during the reign of Amenophis who was the son of Rameses and the father of Sethos who reigned toward the close of the 18th dynasty which places the Israelites exodus between 1500 and 1400 BC. This confirms the Old Testament’s chronology for the exodus occuring in 1460 BC."
We looked at this and it is of no value whatsoever. Manetho and chaeromon certainly recorded useful information about ancient egypt but Josephus on his own behalf linked some characters with totally different names to Joseph and Moses mainly because he hasd seen the Hyksos as the Exodus which is now quite an untenable theory. If these theist sites misrepresent this information so badly why should we be expected to believer their claims about the altar mentioned by Diodorus (does he say it was jewish?) or that odd stuff about the translations of the gravestones."
*Historical Confirmation of the
Exodus of Israel Out of Egypt
The Greek historian Herodotus discussed the Exodus in his book Polymnia, section c. 89: "This people [the Israelites], by their own account, inhabited the coasts of the Red Sea, but migrated thence to the maritime parts of Syria, all which district, as far as Egypt, is denominated Palestine."309/36 Strabo, a pagan historian and geographer born in 54 BC also confirmed the history of the Jews and their escape from Egypt under the leadership of Moses. He wrote,
"Among many things believed respecting the temple and inhabitants of Jerusalem, the report most credited is that the Egyptians were the ancestors of the present Jews. An Egyptian priest named Moses, who possessed a portion of the country called lower Egypt, being dissatisfied with the institutions there, left it and came to Judea with a large body of people who worshiped the Divinity"311 "
Again, Herodotus only recounted what he'd heard. Many later histories and present ones I doubt not also supposed there was some kind of exodus event. It is only now that we can say that there is no documentary evidence, merely repeating of the Bible story and trying to link it (monumentally unsucessfully) with ancient texts and (with a bit more milage) to inscriptions and landmarks which w badly need to get confirmation about. It does not impress that the supposed supportive authorities are from the past centuries.
*Ancient Sinai Inscriptions
Concerning The Exodus
Discovered in the Wadi Mukatteb (the Valley of the Writing) in the Sinai Peninsula was a set of inscriptions which describe and confirm Moses’ leadership in leading the Israelites out of Egypt and the miraculous events that followed.309/48 It is believed that these inscriptions were made by Jews who took part in the exodus or by people alive in the time of the exodus.
These inscriptions were first described by a historian by the name of Diodorus Siculus, who lived before the birth of Christ (10 BC), in his Library of History.310 So ancient were the writings that no one in Christ’s day could translate them.
In 518 A.D. Cosmas Indicopleustes, a Byzantine Christian writer, also mentions the ancient inscriptions. Concerning them he stated that they appeared "at all halting places, all the stones in that region which were broken off from the mountains, written with carved Hebrew characters."309/49 Cosmos came to the conclusion that they were made by the Israelites fleeing Egypt.
Other explorers which confirmed these inscriptions were Bishop Robert Clayton of Ireland (1753) and Rev. Charles Forster who published these findings in a book in 1862. He came to the conclusion that these inscriptions were a combination of both Hebrew and Egyptian alphabets describing Israel’s exodus out of Egypt.
One of the reasons it is believed that these inscriptions were made by Israelites at the time of the exodus, rather than a copy of the book of Exodus from the Torah, is because they appear to be an original account of the exodus. These inscriptions in rock give account of many of the miracles talked about in the Book of Exodus but have no familiarity with the description accounts given in the book of Exodus.
Rev. Forster found that five out of every six words used in the inscriptions are related to the Hamyarite (ancient Arabic) language which was the vernacular language of Egypt and Yemen. The writings are of two kinds: enchorial or common writing and hieroglyphic style of Egypt that was used by the priests and royalty. The significance of this and why it is believed that whoever wrote these inscriptions were probably Hebrew is, one, because they had to have lived in Egypt to have this kind of knowledge of these two alphabets and, two, because there is no historical records indicating that any Egyptians ever lived in the Sinai. The Bible however tells us that the Israelites lived in the Sinai for forty years.
Mentioned in the inscriptians are the following events of the exodus: the dividing of the red sea and the Israelites passing through safely while the Egyptian army was drowned; Yehovah’s (the name of the Hebrew God) miraculous provision of the quails to feed the israelites; The murmuring of the Jews against Moses; Yehovah’s miraculous provision of water out of a rock; His punishment of Israel for their gluttony and even the name Moses gave to the place where it occurred, Kibroth-hattaavah, which is mentioned in Numbers 11:34; and Exodus 32:6's account of the Israelites sitting down to eat, drink and play.
In 1761 a German explorer Barthold Niebuhr found an extensive ruined cemetery grave site of Jews which was discovered in the Sinai with inscriptions confirming they died as a result of Yehovah’s supernatural plague mentioned in Numbers 11:34-35.312/113-114
Also mentioned in the Sinai Inscriptions were Miriam’s rebellion against Moses, Numbers 12:1-3, and the plague of the fiery serpents mentioned in Numbers 21.
Unfortunately the skeptics said they would not accept these Sinai Incriptions as being genuine unless someone discovered a bilingual inscription with the Sinai inscriptions on one side and another language on the other side for comparison, similar to the Rosetta Stone. Astoundingly a Sinai explorer by the name of Pierce Butler in 1860 discovered not a bilingual inscription, but a trilingual inscription in a cave on the Djebel Maghara mountain. This inscription contained three alphabets describing the same event, one of which was the same language used in the Sinai Inscriptions.309/66-67
Three independent scholars have translated these Sinai inscriptions: Professor de Laval, Niebuhr and Rev. Forster. All three agree that these inscriptions were made by the ancient Israelites during the Exodus. Those who have criticized these conclusions have never done a translation of their own or given any historical or archaeological evidence to show otherwise ."
And Prof Laval. De 1850 à 1851, Lottin de Laval part pour une deuxième expédition dans la péninsule arabique. Il en rapportera deux cents kilos de moulages,
and Forster (FORSTER, Charles. Sinai Photographed. Contemporary Records of Israel in the Wilderness.London: Richard Bentley, 1862.) It's a rare book with his beliefs that the inscriptions were the contemporary records of the Exodux Hebrews. I searched and found that there are various languages of various dates. C34 didn't want to hear this, of course.
"The authors of the voluminous Corpus Inscriptionum Semiticarum pronounced Forster’s work to be “silly” and Edward Robinson calls it “visionary” in his Biblical Researches in Palestine…(1874).
What then are these mysterious writings on the rocks of the southern part of the Sinai Peninsula? In point of fact, there is a mixture, a mixture that reflects the ongoing history of the various peoples that traversed the Sinai from about 1500 B.C. through the Crusades and later. There are inscriptions in what can be called, “Proto-Sinaitic”. There are Egyptian hieroglyphic writings. There are also inscriptions in Nabataean, Arabic, Latin, Greek, Armenian, Georgian and Arabic in its more modern script form. There is also a sprinkling of tourist or pilgrim markings in modern European languages.
The inscriptions dealt with by Forster, aside from his treatment of Egyptian hieroglyphics, are, in fact, the products of the Nabataean civilization, a civilization that flourished many centuries after the Exodus.
In the Sinai these rock inscriptions are widespread, and the Nabataean inscriptions are clustered in places like Wady Mukattub, Wady Maghara, and other sites. They are indeed in the route of the Israelites coming out in the Exodus. However, the inscriptions are also found along the west side of the Gulf of Aqaba, in the remains of storied Petra, and on the edge of the desert roughly east of Galilee.
The inscriptions which Forster assigns to the Israelites have been clearly shown to be Nabataean, the language of the Arabians who ranged from Sinai and around the perimeters of Palestine and whose kingdom and culture flowered in the era of the Roman occupation: 100 B.C. through ca. 200 A.D ."
This is why one CANNOT EVER take the claims of these Bible - literalists websites at face value. True, It took me some time to find this, but you can't tell me this was impossible to find by any who posted the claims? Truth is, they didn't look and they never question.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-23-2010 at 06:49 AM..
I have been doing a lot of reading lately and came across this website. Totally fascinating! There is a lot of info on this link, but the one that pops out at me is about the story of the Exodus. I was always taught (when I was in church) that everything in the Bible is documented history. Apparently it is not. Anyone else have any opinions on all this?
Yes. Actually there is an excellent documentary(very academical) about this topic.
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. And let's not forget they were all destroyed over a 100 year period.
...You will believe anything except the truth that many posters here try to share with you.
