Careful You Don't Offend Someone Around Here With Facts (God, Christians, sunday)
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I never stated them to be my own experiences, if that's what you're implying. Some of them are, some of them are experiences of friends.
As far as where I lived; I lived all over the place when I was a child. My parents moved any time they got "The Call", which meant they believed that god literally and audibly spoke to them and told them to move. By the time I was 18, we'd moved 17 times, with as little as three months in one place.
The fact is, people are better off without religion. Look to modern non-religious countries for example, like Sweden, Norway, and Japan. They have a higher standard of living, low crime rates, and are all-around better places to live than religious countries. This is not chance. Look to our prison system as well. The percent of atheists in prison is 40 times lower than what would be anticipated merely looking at religious demographics in this country. Atheists are more law abiding, nicer people all around than the religious. Statistics prove it.
Correlation is not causation. And people are rarely going to claim atheism in American prisons because there's no percentage in doing so.
Still I don't deny that atheism is a luxury that wealthy people or nations can afford and that wealthy people commit less violent crime. Although I think if you look at arms-dealing per-capita you might find surprises. (Drat, I just remembered I can't link to Nationmaster. Well basically Scandinavia, France, and Russia are big arms dealers to the Third World when you consider their size)
Still maybe you could consider Cyprus, Greece, or Malta among religious nations. Or Belarus, Estonia, and Russia on the irreligious side.
In terms of inequality-adjusted happiness some highly atheist nations do well, but so do some of the more religious nations. Secular Denmark did quite well, but not as well as Costa Rica. France did better than Greece, but not as well as Malta or the US. Although irreligious nations may have come out better overall there are plenty of outliers.
And I could go into generosity and suicide, but I've went to that well enough so let's look in the US. The Southern Baptists states come out bad sure, but what about the other states that come out as religious? Like Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Utah, and West Virginia? (Louisiana is arguably in "The Southern Baptist belt", see map and source below Pew, but I'll agree the Catholic parts aren't any better on crime.)
Idaho - 42nd
Indiana - 29th
Kansas - 24th: Above half the states so I'll give you it.
Missouri - 12th: Although arguably it's in the "Southern Baptist Belt."
Nebraska - 35th
Utah - 45th
So some do bad, but at least half are in the bottom 25 with two in the bottom ten.
Among the ten least religious states they listed we have
New Hampshire - 47
Vermont - 48
Alaska - 6
Massachusetts - 20
Maine - 50
Connecticut - 37
Rhode Island - 44
Colorado - 25
Oregon - 38
New York - 22
That is indeed better than the non-Baptist religious states. It's hard to admit my case is weaker than I thought, but it's not a slam-dunk for either side. The average is worse for the non-Baptist religious, but of the irreligious 2 are in the top 20 and one is in the top ten. Three of the irreligious are in the bottom ten compared to two in the previous "Religious, but not Baptist" list. I know it sounds bigoted, but most of the social ills people like you see in American Christians are largely ills of plurality or majority Baptists places. Kansas is the only state that's religious, and under 15% Southern Baptist, to be in the top-24 although its rate seems to be below what they list as US average. It arguably has more to do with Southern history than religion. (If I'd included the Dakotas I think non-Baptist religious states would have came out better, but Pew Research listed them as just average in religiosity so I didn't)
Still your kind of statements are what you almost want to hear from an atheist as a religious person. They're steeped in childhood bitterness, dubious statistics from advocate websites, and so forth.
Last edited by Thomas R.; 12-11-2010 at 06:50 AM..
Addendum: Going on Nationmaster I find the US and Malta are in the top-ten in per-capita arms dealing. They're both below France, Sweden, and Russia but I concede it weakens my point a bit.
That's a lazy, indifferent cop-out. Differences, MAJOR FREAKIN' ONES, have been made because people refused to shut up about injustice. Go ahead and be an 'I don't care, it would happen anyway' type of person. It just shows us your true colors. You'll be able to sit back, not put forth any effort to make the world better, and reap the rewards that people like me and millions of others will bring you by our actions.
You're a speed bump, and that's rather contemptible.
Look...you don't know me...so you have no basis for any of that.
I never said, "I don't care"....that is you putting words in my mouth.
I said, "Don't blame 'Religion', it isn't the culprit here."
MOF...I do care...a lot. I've donated most (60 to 70 percent) of the money I've made in my life to helping others that are needy and less fortunate. Granted, even the 30-40% is still a substantial sum...but I see people hoard TENS, HUNDREDS of millions...even BILLIONS. They buy planes, yachts, 10 carat diamonds, Ferrari and/or Rolls Royce...take lavish vactions...and buy Van Goghs to hang on their wall and look at. I drive a 1994 GMC pickup truck I bought from my Dad...haven't been on a vacation to speak of in 15 years...own no jewelry that wasn't a gift or family heirloom...and grow my own food. I live very comfortably, but waste very little. I devote hundreds of hours per year of my time volunteering in numerous ways...a lot of it through those "horrible" religious organizations you and others have "slammed" hundreds of times on this forum. I don't belong to any of them...but I work along side them to do much good for the local communities they serve. Say what you want of them...but I know first hand that some of the people that belong to those organizations are the kindest, most generous, loving people I have ever had the privilege of knowing. And BTW...not once did any of them ever get on my case for not being a member of their congregation. They thank me for my help, and show me love and respect...and even though they know what some of my business enterprises entail...they never judged me.
I'm a Veteran...volunteer service...Army.
I do less than some...but more than most...to help others.
Maybe you do to aid others as well...if you do, you have my thanks and my respect. BTW.."doing" isn't spewing off knocking others for not holding the same theological viewpoint you do.
Not that it matters what you think about what kind of person I am...I know what I do, and I see the burdens of others eased by it. That's what counts...and that's why I do it.
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