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It's not the atheist that invented the "young earth" argument.
True enough...and I hope lw answers the mail as I look forward to a response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
You need to spend more time telling your fellow Christians you think their argument is a straw man, not the atheist.
Because apparently, between 40% - 57% of American's believe "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so."
During our last exchange you certainly provided fair reason for me to doubt your integrity. However, I'll go ahead and accept your stats here as quite probably accurate - sight unseen. And, yes, I often do question YEC'ers concerning their Biblical interpretation - let's just say that, thus far, I find their hermeneutics to be less than convincing.
This brings me back to my original assertion which you apparently choose to ignore. Where does the Bible provide revelation concerning the age of the earth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
Actually, you should scroll down and read the various poll results talking about fundamentalism in the U.S.
Christianity in America is mainly a fundamentalist, anti-modernism religion. The minority of moderates may not want to accept that, but it's true.
Fundamentalist perhaps. Anti-modern? I think not. If the "anti-modernism" label belongs to any group it probably belongs to the "greeny environuts" who would have us all living off the grid with horse and buggy.
This is a first - I've never before been characterized as a religious moderate.
Galileo got in trouble because he mocked the Clergy while he was doing it.
Good for him...maybe an extra million people immigrated to the U S and away from the corrupt church and government because of him.
Christians never desire to know the truth about America in the early years. Most of the people who made the adventurous trek across the ocean and settled in a new land with natives all around them were fed up with the church. Most people have never really realized what it must have been like in those days to pack up and leave most of their friends and relatives and climb aboard a wooden ship with nothing to depend upon but the winds to propel them. Add to that the absence of any kind of weather knowldege much less forecasting and one good storm was capable of taking them all out.
The forebears were deists and George Washington wasn't even religious. He was deep into Freemasonry and was never heard mentioning Jesus...not once. Leave it up to the do gooders...they made up a story about a cherry tree and have told it in our schools ever since. A military man and politician who could not tell a lie...give me a break.
Last edited by Melvin.George; 12-31-2010 at 11:56 PM..
As compared to what credible academic qualifications in religious (snort..) "scientific pronouncements"????
Sorry: you'll have to do the studing and reading on those transitionals. but... there are no half-whale, half-leopards out there anywhere. That's not how genetic transitions are represented. That's only in stupid religious comic books, which is the best they can do.
BTW, You are a transitional; you just won't accept or understand it.
Note to the Uninitiated and Scientifically Unread: The fossil record is NOT responsible to provide conveniently toe-tagged samples, laid out in undisturbed geological strata, with documented dates of death on said tags. We arrive at these determinations through exactly the methods my link provides. it just happens to clarify the scientific diversity and complexity that is used now before credible conclusions are conservatively made.
But in the past (> 15 - 20 yrs; the scientifically distant past), such conclusions were not nearly so well supported by unrelated disciplines. They may have been accruate, but today's findings are very much more reliable.
My intention with this particular link was to specifically counter exactly just such unconsidered knee-jerk denialist commentary as lw's. The huge and fruitful cross-pollination of ideas, of techniques, of entirely different methodologies in entirely unique and unrelated disciplines, is surely more convincing than the denialist's retreat, of bleating and yowling that "it's all just a theory" or that the careful conclusions, alongside the exact methods used to reach them, are "unsupportable". or that unimaginably contradictory and/or impossible biblical myths are somehow inerrant.
What IS supportable to you then? God's voice yelling through the rain storm?
Tell yah what: that ain't gonna happen! ('Cause He don't exist, or categorically refuses to show Himself to ANYONE!)
As the larger scientific process evolves and advances, it becomes ever more believable and reliable. Else that Concorde would not have flown, we would not have reached the moon, and electron microscopes and The Large Hadron Collider (Creator of The God Particle, coming soon!) would only be ineffective pipe dreams.
At some point, the truth just sorta takes hold of you, dunnit, lw?
(Hand the boy a crying towel; I think he needs one right about now...)
Shalom...and happy Gregorian Calendrical New Year. The Hadron Collider...a colossal waste of time...similar to all the money King Solomon spent on 700 wives, only more expensive. Find the so-called "God Particle" (Higgs boson)? In light of your humanistic viewpoint, you of all people should know that nature is never that kind. Remember what Robert Oppenheimer said, "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." If, as you say, G-d does not exist, why do you concern yourself with applying gender to such (according to your viewpoint) a 'mere concept?' We know for a scriptural fact that He proclaims Himself to you an a daily basis...are you listening? You keep kicking against the ox goad in a vain attempt to categorize G-d away in some sort of bizarre Darwinian catalog of fossil transitions. Your "intentions" are unfruitful no matter how much cross-pollination of "ideas" (theories) occurs in the various fields of study. And you are correct about the fossil record...no dead thing can take responsibility for anything, especially "toe-tagged" samples! The self appointed "initiates" should stop gluing bones together where they don't belong. The Blessings of The Eternal One bring you joy...
I think that believers who are excited about archaeology that supports the bible, have a right to take that archaeology literally, and it literally increase their belief.
Believers are entitled to Archaeology too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
Well I understand, but the evidence is there in archaeology that proves many biblical events.
The problem is that believers are so ready and willing to accept any archaeology that minutely supports their Bible stories but when that very same archaeology throws doubt, or entirely disproves their Bible stories, they reject it out of hand. Brother Campo being an excellent example of that sort of blatant cherry-picking.
The problem is that believers are so ready and willing to accept any archaeology that minutely supports their Bible stories but when that very same archaeology throws doubt, or entirely disproves their Bible stories, they reject it out of hand.
True enough...and I hope lw answers the mail as I look forward to a response.
During our last exchange you certainly provided fair reason for me to doubt your integrity. However, I'll go ahead and accept your stats here as quite probably accurate - sight unseen. And, yes, I often do question YEC'ers concerning their Biblical interpretation - let's just say that, thus far, I find their hermeneutics to be less than convincing.
This brings me back to my original assertion which you apparently choose to ignore. Where does the Bible provide revelation concerning the age of the earth?
Fundamentalist perhaps. Anti-modern? I think not. If the "anti-modernism" label belongs to any group it probably belongs to the "greeny environuts" who would have us all living off the grid with horse and buggy.
This is a first - I've never before been characterized as a religious moderate.
Ah yes, I remember you. You're the guy that insults for Jesus.
I provided a link to the page of the stats I referenced.
I ignored your question because it wasn't asked of me, nor do I know or care if young earth is in the bible.
Christianity is the belief that the Christians believe, not the belief contained in the bible. It's irrelevant to me if young earth is in the bible, if the Christians believe it is true that's all that matters from my point of view. That in fact was my whole point. If you want to remove young earth from the set of Christian dogma, you need to be talking to your fellow Christians, not us atheist.
I provided a link to the page of the stats I referenced.
Yes, I noted the link. As stated, I determined to go ahead and just take your word for it - however dangerous as it might prove to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
I ignored your question because it wasn't asked of me, nor do I know or care if young earth is in the bible.
Christianity is the belief that the Christians believe, not the belief contained in the bible. It's irrelevant to me if young earth is in the bible, if the Christians believe it is true that's all that matters from my point of view. That in fact was my whole point. If you want to remove young earth from the set of Christian dogma, you need to be talking to your fellow Christians, not us atheist.
It's interesting to observe you as well as many other self termed atheists/agnostics here on CD decry the apparent fedeistic dogma of the YEC crowd while ignoring your own with respect to the apparent self assurance of God's non-existence and 'Biblical falsity.'
I must assert here that I'm at a loss as to how to differentiate between Christian dogma and atheistic dogma.
Post there to refute my positive argument for the non-existence of God.
It would appear that you're tossing out a red herring.
I've already noted your so called "positive argument." In terms of a response, I deemed it to be an exercise in futility then and I still see no reason to change my view. How does any of this address the problem of how one is to distinguish between Christian dogma and atheistic dogma?
We all know what arguments are like (with respect to a certain part of the human anatomy) - everybody has one. In order to have a coherent argument one must first have familiarity with what it means to be reasonable and coherent. Integrity is also a vital component. As stated, you've aptly demonstrated your deficiencies with respect to integrity. You're also on record here as apparently positing the notion that what is contained in the Bible is of virtually no significance with respect to Christian tenets and values. To quote you:
"Christianity is the belief that the Christians believe, not the belief contained in the bible."
Hence, how could one ever expect to have a cogent, coherent, reasonable discussion with you concerning God's existence and/or the reasoned arguments for Christianity?
Why try to reason with a Christian who refuses to be reasonable?
Why try to reason the an atheist who refuses to be reasonable?
Shalom...and happy Gregorian Calendrical New Year. The Hadron Collider...a colossal waste of time...similar to all the money King Solomon spent on 700 wives, only more expensive. Find the so-called "God Particle" (Higgs boson)? In light of your humanistic viewpoint, you of all people should know that nature is never that kind. Remember what Robert Oppenheimer said, "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." Counter Point: the LHC was not designed and assembled to disprove your beloved but unprovable God or anything else so frivolous. That will just be another very useful side-effect, since we should work to dispatch institutionalized ignorance, wouldn't you agree? Stop wasting time on the frivolous and illogical, right?
Rather, the LHC is the result of some very intense thinking within a very distinguished community of high IQ thinkers. Possibly higher than yours, and possibly even higher than mine !!!!!****$%#$%$#!!!! (tho' that idea's debatable IMHO...).
Remember if you choose; the other various colliders in this world have produced, among other things, some highly useful medical isotopes and, lordy lordy noooohhh!!!; factual knowledge. Why not go the extra step?
You perhaps prefer Mega-Buck $$$$$$ hydrocarbon/religious wars (see: the Middle East's endless tyrannical struggles in the name of [pick one] God, Yahweh, Allah, and so on) to, let's say, room temp fusion, endless clean power, huge advances in our understanding of the universe and it's likely origins, (and possibly it's future?
Also reallize that the afformentioned ME wars will inevitably end up in some nuclear exchanges; it's only a matter of time.
Or, alternately, the LHC might enable our ability to perhaps, in the future, easily warp our way around that universe to meet and greet our peers or superiors out there, those who long ago dropped the faithy-mystical Supermonster concept of a convenient deity....
If, as you say, G-d does not exist,
(And yes, i do say that, 'cause it's true BTW...)
why do you concern yourself with applying gender to such (according to your viewpoint) a 'mere concept?'
Simply a matter of being polite. for example, I used to rudely call you guys "Xtians", and typed "Gawd" and "HEEH" (His Endlessly Eternal Holiness"), but now, out of respect for the fond personal beliefs of others, I defer to the majority assumption of your God being a kindly white-bearded man on a cloud, known as He.
We know for a scriptural fact that He proclaims Himself to you an a daily basis...are you listening?
Q: who is the "We" you refer to? Your cohorts in faith? Certainly not "Me as We", I can assure you. I've seen far too much in worlds I'm sure you have no understanding of, to glom on to some simplistic, surreal worldview that demands an artificial fealty combined with a vast organized irrationality and mind-numbing limits to learning and exploration. I not only don't hear the mythic ramblings of the delusional, but I admonish others to fear not such ideas.
We of open mind and soul all understand why the church is so opposed to such exploration. It's precisely why so many fled to the Americas, and now, in hot pursuit, the Christian community tries to claim this is and always has been a christian nation. Last thing they want is an independent, powerful open-minded nation.
You keep kicking against the ox goad in a vain attempt to categorize G-d away in some sort of bizarre Darwinian catalog of fossil transitions.
Not necessary, as I explained. Transitionals are just the last foothold of the uninformed, an idea that's crumbled already, one of desperate denialist Christians who cling to old ideas such as this. Since we scientists can't readily provide a complete collection, museum quality, toe-tagged and all, well then I guess we'd have to "conclude" that Evolution just didn't happen then, huh? ()
So now, the front-line warriors for Jesus have been stripped of another fake armament, and that rankles them. Oh, we'll still hear about the lack of discovered "transitionals". yada yada. So what? DNA mapping completely succeeds, transcends, overwrites and obliterates such an antique need.
Your "intentions" are unfruitful no matter how much cross-pollination of "ideas" (theories) occurs in the various fields of study. And you are correct about the fossil record...no dead thing can take responsibility for anything, especially "toe-tagged" samples! The self appointed "initiates" should stop gluing bones together where they don't belong. The Blessings of The Eternal One bring you joy...
[Thx, but I'm self-blessed. Have been ever since I actively chose to become educated and world-aware! But thx again for the kindly sentiments!]
But to your point, if we do in fact find some bones together in the same undisturbed pit, same relative carbon-14 or K-Ar age, with obsidian tools that have identical fission tracking ages, and the tools in the pit have an identical X-ray fluorescence "fingerprint", all found in the exact same geostrata, with the same bone size and structure as those others in that other nearby pit, and perhaps even with an obvious continuation of the same spear scrape mark down the femur and on into the tibia, you'd deny it came from the same individual or tribe or age? You handily and ignore lt all, while yowling that such determinations are all just some assumptive scientist's wild guesses, all fraught with personal bias and prevarication?
(Or worse, a global conspiracy, all kept über-secret all these years?....Uhhmmm....)
Well of course you would, if it serves the 'cause' of denialism.
Your obvious total lack of understanding of the ever-growing complexity and thoroughness of modern technologies, and the irrefutable logic of cross-technology confirmation, is painful, but only for you. I know, it's hard, but you should at least pick one small area of technology and try to keep up. I'd suggest, again, Scientific American. It might even open your mind to other modern ideas!
By your preferred lack of interest or understanding of both sides of this debate, you are hereby officially a member in good standing of The Great Misguided Unbelievers Society, stuck in a world strictly limited by the words of a very small book and fable-set, one crammed with what we now know to be irrational and ambiguous impossibilities that are absent any proofs whatsoever except in the imaginations of those with a unmanageable fear of death.
All those worthwhile ideas, replaced by simple prayer and faith, all unquestioned.
How exciting a perspective this must provide for you and your "flat earth veldt-geist"! (Ooops! Careful! You don't want to fall off the 'edge' of your limited reality world, now do you now?)
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