What caused the Big Bang! (hell, myth, atheism, heaven)
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That's correct (though like time, they exist in a real way also) but it's like language, logic or anything else we use to describe, discuss or represent real things. The concepts are ours but the things we apply them to are real - they exist independently of us. Therefore if we have two rocks and way apply the numeral '3' we are wrong. Therefore mathematics must be correct. If we say two apples, the rocks are still rocks but our wording was incorrect and if we see a box and we don't know what's in it we should say we don't. That's correct reasoning. If we said two rocks because we can't prove there aren't two rocks in there, that is not good reasoning. So all that stuff is valid or not and just because it's done by humans doesn't mean that there is no validity or invalidity about it.
Yes, the things being counted are real, but they cannot be counted for infinity in reality. In other words, we can always say "+1" to any number, but not to rocks. There is obviously not an infinite number of anything real (actually in the universe as we know it). True infinity can only be one.
Last edited by WonderingWanderer; 12-22-2010 at 02:44 PM..
That's correct (though like time, they exist in a real way also) but it's like language, logic or anything else we use to describe, discuss or represent real things. The concepts are ours but the things we apply them to are real - they exist independently of us. Therefore if we have two rocks and way apply the numeral '3' we are wrong. Therefore mathematics must be correct. If we say two apples, the rocks are still rocks but our wording was incorrect and if we see a box and we don't know what's in it we should say we don't. That's correct reasoning. If we said two rocks because we can't prove there aren't two rocks in there, that is not good reasoning. So all that stuff is valid or not and just because it's done by humans doesn't mean that there is no validity or invalidity about it.
And thusly would speak all the logically, mathematically, philosophically and conceptually challenged Zarathrustas of the world! Mathematics is an entirely artificial rubric within our minds based on our sensory level of perception and experiencing of the world in ways that "can be made discrete and measured." That does not mean the world is therefore "discrete" and aggregated into the measured "quantities" of our sensory experience. Nor do the rules of mathematics in any way reveal the rules of reality. Our ability to mimic and model outcomes of the actual processes of reality by using our "measured" approximations within the rules of our artificial mathematics reveals NOTHING about the reality . . . only about the adequacy of our tool for predictions.
Here's my thought process; Existence is in three forms; impossible, possible, and essential. If you know of a fourth option, I'm open to learning. Impossible means under no circumstance can it exist. Possible is the old cause / effect deal. If it can be discerned as having a beginning, then it falls into the possible category. Essential means it has to exist. Everything in this universe is possible - doesn't have to be here, but it is for one reason or another. Always caused by something before it. Subject to time, space, size, dimension, a start point, etc. If you were to back up in creation and go, go, go back, until you reach a start point, I call it "A", and then just think about it logically. "A" cannot create "A". It has to be something infinite to bring "A" into existence, something unbound by the laws of the universe as we know it. Something that does not rely upon "A" to exist itself. An essential existence. Whatever you call that; be it God, gods, Jesus, Allah, whatever, I have no idea or explanation. Maybe the old, "I am that I am" is the best way to put it. I simply think of it as my creator. But this side of eternity, there's no way for one to know for sure.
I agree with the thought process, but I don't think it ends anywhere different then where it starts. It still an admission that something happened and we have very little idea why. If you add God into the equation, it just creates an extra step of asking, "well okay, how did HE get here?"
I'll bet it was God's Mother-in-law. She came to visit, became angry, started kicking and throwing things around and shouting hysterically. Before god knew it the whole place blew up.
I agree with the thought process, but I don't think it ends anywhere different then where it starts. It still an admission that something happened and we have very little idea why. If you add God into the equation, it just creates an extra step of asking, "well okay, how did HE get here?"
Yeah, that's beyond me. It's a big leap from an unknown "something" creator to God as depicted in the holy books of religion.
I'll bet it was God's Mother-in-law. She came to visit, became angry, started kicking and throwing things around and shouting hysterically. Before god knew it the whole place blew up.
I knew it - all of existence is merely an episode in a huge soap opera.
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