In a free society it matters what your neighbor believes religiously (atheism, abortion)
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The American Religious Identification Survey gave Non-Religious groups the largest gain in terms of absolute numbers - 14,300,000 (8.4% of the population) to 29,400,000 (14.1% of the population) for the period 1990 to 2001 in the USA.[1][27]
In Australia, census data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics give "no religion" the largest gains in absolute numbers over the 15 years from 1991 to 2006, from 2,948,888 (18.2% of the population that answered the question) to 3,706,555 (21.0% of the population that answered the question).[28]
However it was also a statistical fact that once most people thought the world was flat, and that disease and conditions like epilepsy were caused by demonic possession. Counter views then were the minority. Slowly however they changed.
The same is true of atheism. Yes, the majority still subscribe to the evidence devoid notion that there is a god entity. However Atheism in many countries is the fastest growing minority group. Studies are being produced suggesting the trends say we will see an extinction of religion "relatively" soon in 9 nations.
So really all your post points out is something we know already.... we are an ignorant species, slow to learn and slow to change.... but we get there in the end. We have seen massive changes in the Zeitgeist on many opinions and beliefs over time... there is little reason on offer to suggest that Religion will be any different... though clearly it is one of the slower aspects of our human ignorance to change.
I do not expect to see religion die, nor do I expect my children's children to see it either, and probably not for many generations after that. However the trends I see today are promising.... lack of religion is on the rise as one of the fastest growing minority groups.... Secular agendas are becoming more prevalent even among the religious.... agendas that were once religious are slowly dying such as persecution of the homosexual.... and the conversation between science and religion has been ENTIRELY one directional with a constant erosion of the fringes of the latter by the former.
Long may it continue and I am proud to have played my small part in it.
I am happy to report that this is entirely untrue. They are actually becoming a very significant force. Take, for one example, Atheist Ireland a group of which I am a founding member. Barely more than a year old Atheist Ireland has played a good role in politics in Ireland and in the EU....
....In Ireland playing a major role in the scheduling of Referendum on Children's rights and on the Blasphemy law. They are playing a large part in the new Irish government's plans to remove the schools from Catholic patronage....
At UN level they have helped cause the UN to monitor Racial and Religious discrimination in Irish schools....
So I see nothing at all to support this assertion you have made.
Again I would disagree. They might think differently in terms of the existence of gods. However the reasons they are taken so seriously in situations like I listed above is that many of the actual MAIN agendas of atheists match that of many theists too... that is to say secular agendas. Most atheists do not want to remove belief in god from the world. Most could not care less what people think about god. The agenda of most atheists is not atheism, but secularism. Clearly mass atheism is ONE way to achieve secularism, but it is by far not the top means most aim for. An ideal secular state can be achieved in a state with 1% belief in god or 99%.
In fact a large number of atheists are "cultural theists" and are perfectly happy with, and even joining in with, much of the culture that comes from religion. There is nothing "good" I am aware of in religion that one has to actually think there is a god in order to be perfectly happy with keeping..... mainly because they are nothing to do with religion at all, but have been commandeered by religion in order to make the package look better.
Possibly the one thing you said that I agree with 100%. I do not expect to see any major change in my lifetime, nor do I expect any major change for many generations yet. Does that mean we should not try? Of course not. Many of us have a vision that goes far beyond the short term of our own lives. Your own narrow vision confined to your own lifespan might suit you, more power to you, but it is not enough for many of us. Many of us see the slow, but steady decline of the hold of religion on our society, politics and education... and are proud of the tiny part we play in it... even if we will never live to see the end result.
Some people get out of bed looking forward to the joy of trolling.
Why whenever you respond to my posts, do you always get so far off the point of the thread?
I was addressing the issue of: "It matters what your neighbor believes religiously". This post is in the "here and NOW", not, "hundreds of generations in the future".
HaHaHaHa...Funny that it was "SCIENCE" that had people believing that "earth must be flat" BS.---Heeeeeeeey, we have PROVEN OBJECTIVELY that water seeks level. Now, look at the oceans, seas, and lakes...how could they have water in them if the Earth wasn't flat?...Can't you see?...We have the scientifically proven, objective evidence to support it!
Also...regardless of what you say or hope for...the FACT remains...Atheism VS Theism is like putting a Little League team with a losing record against the NY Yankees. You need to get hip to that.
I love the "fastest growing minority group" statement! I hate to rain on your parade...but the Atheists improvement to 11W-89L from 10W-90L, isn't turning any heads!
You talk about "Atheist Ireland"... you're joking right? First, Ireland is like 90% Theist...second, even if they ALL converted, 6 million of the worlds 7 BILLION people means just about squat!
All the delusion of all the religious dogma that has ever existed pales in comparison to the delusion that Atheism will ever be anything to speak of. I know you don't like facing the REALITY that Atheism will never do anything but get trounced (like it ALWAYS has) in the arena of world influence...but that's as much a fact as any fact that has ever been know to man. Get a clue as to how things REALLY have been, how they REALLY are now, and how they are REALLY going to ALWAYS be when it comes to that issue.
This post is in the "here and NOW", not, "hundreds of generations in the future".
Yes, and the reason why my post was on topic both in the thread AND as a reply to your post is that what we do in the here and now IS important to the future, which is why many of us do what we do.
It matters indeed what our neighbours believe today, and what we do about it and how we react to it, because it very much influences our future.
If you operate in life solely in a "now now now" mentality then so be it, but many of us do not have such a narrow vision and all of "now" is inextricably linked to the future and our hopes for it.
To many of us the future is the main consideration in what we choose to do in the present. Animals are mostly the ones who live in the "now". Our concern and consideration for the future is one of the things that set us apart from animals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Funny that it was "SCIENCE" that had people believing that "earth must be flat" BS.
No it was not generally anything to do with science. Firstly because the scientific method as we have it today simply did not exist. Secondly because most of the people who thought it was flat thought so because... quite simply.... that is what it looks like to us. If you look to the horizon it looks flat... and people would assume it stayed that way.
So nah, you are entitled to your own opinions here. You are NOT entitled to your own facts however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Also...regardless of what you say or hope for...the FACT remains...Atheism VS Theism is like putting a Little League team with a losing record against the NY Yankees.
Afraid not. One might have the greater numbers at this time, but as I said the other is the fastest growing minority, and studies are projecting out the demise of religion entirely in 9 nations. Coupled with that many religious agendas, such as preventing homosexuals from certain rights, preventing certain scientific inquiry, and preventing people from obtaining legal abortion... are starting to fail and crumble.... In countries all around the world gay marriage, adoption, abortion are all becoming the rights of citizens, and scientific inquiry is proceeding despite the attempts of the religious to stifle it.
And no amount of catchphrases like "Get real" and "get hip" will change these facts.
The American Religious Identification Survey gave Non-Religious groups the largest gain in terms of absolute numbers - 14,300,000 (8.4% of the population) to 29,400,000 (14.1% of the population) for the period 1990 to 2001 in the USA.[1][27]
In Australia, census data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics give "no religion" the largest gains in absolute numbers over the 15 years from 1991 to 2006, from 2,948,888 (18.2% of the population that answered the question) to 3,706,555 (21.0% of the population that answered the question).[28]
As I have said many times before...You guys are sorta like a sports team that has a average annual record over the last FIVE THOUSAND YEARS of 2Wins against 98Losses (actually more like "1 for 99" average over that time, but I'm feeling generous this morning), but goes around telling the Championship team that has always whooped up on them, about how they "don't know how to play"...And the current 10 & 90 record doesn't matter, they are, in fact, "the best team"...and, "we're gonna get you!!" All the members of the other team that has trounced them over, and over, and over again, just shake their heads and say to each other, "Get a load of those guys, we mow over them like they aren't even there, and yet they're talkin' smack!"
When you guys put together a "decent team" that has some kind of "game", maybe you'll have some "CRED"...until then you are coming from a position that is so weak that it really isn't even taken seriously, let alone looked at as a contender. And, as I said, no matter how often you declare yourselves "The Team on the Rise", your "10W & 90L" record in the contest of, Belief vs Non belief, PROVES otherwise. And again, the current improvement in your record to "11W & 89L" isn't turning any heads.
So...say whatever you want...the World Standard position of **THEEEEEEEISM** will just continue to REEEEEEEIGN SUPREEEEEEEME...like it ALWAYS has.
Yes, and the reason why my post was on topic both in the thread AND as a reply to your post is that what we do in the here and now IS important to the future, which is why many of us do what we do.
It matters indeed what our neighbours believe today, and what we do about it and how we react to it, because it very much influences our future.
If you operate in life solely in a "now now now" mentality then so be it, but many of us do not have such a narrow vision and all of "now" is inextricably linked to the future and our hopes for it.
Afraid not. One might have the greater numbers at this time, but as I said the other is the fastest growing minority, and studies are projecting out the demise of religion entirely in 9 nations. Coupled with that many religious agendas, such as preventing homosexuals from certain rights, preventing certain scientific inquiry, and preventing people from obtaining legal abortion... are starting to fail and crumble.... In countries all around the world gay marriage, adoption, abortion are all becoming the rights of citizens, and scientific inquiry is proceeding despite the attempts of the religious to stifle it.
And no amount of catchphrases like "Get real" and "get hip" will change these facts.
Get a clue---Overall, worldwide, religious belief is seeing unprecedented GAINS, not losses...THAT'S how it REALLY is.
Some people get so bolluxed up in their Anti-God Bias, they will grab at any straw...and try to twist anything they can...to pretend REALITY isn't what it is. They can't handle TRUTH.
It is of course possible to hand pick locations in the world where religion numbers are rising, just as I can pick places where it is falling.
We can all hand pick the data we want, it is very easy. The overall picture however is not so easily warped to your way of thinking. Around the world secular agendas are winning out over religious ones. Atheism is generally one of the fastest growing groups. Plus ignorance, the fuel of much religion, is being eroded with each and every advancement of science.
It is good to know you see it all as a competition, some kind of league, that you can troll forums with and pretend you are "winning" something, but meanwhile the world marches on and religion is losing not just overall numbers, but overall influence and power. The US electing openly secular presidents, countries like Ireland are prosecuting the church for its crimes and removing their political influence and the patronage of the schools, and the citizens of Islamic regimes are over throwing their dictators and installing secular democracies.
The change is slow, and if you play a numbers game.... which appears to be all you have to offer.... then religion will of course have greater numbers for a long time to come. I have no problem with that knowledge. The progress I have seen in my life time is enough to know I am doing the right thing, and our species is slowly, but surely, heading in the right direction.
I say that based solely on what I see around me today, and not on some fantasy that I can tell the future which you appear to be operating with.
Problem is dearie, you play the numbers game, we show you we the godless are growing THE fastest and yet you can but deny deny deny.
In a matter of time, you will devolve into the minority and we are happy to predict this all too late but better late than never end game.
In the meantime, theists will band together as do you to try and make a case for their collective delusions.
In this chart
It will be christianity and islam that loses traction. The hindus are no threat as apart from their caste system, they are pretty much docile.
Your appeal to numbers loses credibility as you and the muslims reject the extreme POV and in xian circles RC's, EO's, JW's and mormons are not considered xian by the true believers(tm)
Hence 51% barely constitutes a majority. That chart will likely reduce to a 38% or less between xianity and islam combined. Eventually, these will melt down to cultural identities and nothing more.
This chart is anyway 12 years old and likely if anyone cared to, would be already less than 51% combined. Folk are leaving both in hordes.
It is of course possible to hand pick locations in the world where religion numbers are rising, just as I can pick places where it is falling.
We can all hand pick the data we want, it is very easy. The overall picture however is not so easily warped to your way of thinking. Around the world secular agendas are winning out over religious ones. Atheism is generally one of the fastest growing groups. Plus ignorance, the fuel of much religion, is being eroded with each and every advancement of science.
It is good to know you see it all as a competition, some kind of league, that you can troll forums with and pretend you are "winning" something, but meanwhile the world marches on and religion is losing not just overall numbers, but overall influence and power. The US electing openly secular presidents, countries like Ireland are prosecuting the church for its crimes and removing their political influence and the patronage of the schools, and the citizens of Islamic regimes are over throwing their dictators and installing secular democracies.
The change is slow, and if you play a numbers game.... which appears to be all you have to offer.... then religion will of course have greater numbers for a long time to come. I have no problem with that knowledge. The progress I have seen in my life time is enough to know I am doing the right thing, and our species is slowly, but surely, heading in the right direction.
I say that based solely on what I see around me today, and not on some fantasy that I can tell the future which you appear to be operating with.
It's not "hand picking". If China goes "religious"...just based on sheer population, all the other countries don't mean squat...any losses there are covered many times over---and you know it.
But, wait a minute...I get the impression you think that just because I note the REALITY of the situation, that I think that is a GOOD thing. I don't.
I wish I could wake up one day...and "religion" would be GONE.
I perceive a Source/Creator...but I do NOT embrace "religion".
OTOH...I don't try to "skew reality" to support what I WISH the WORLD was/is/going to be. I deal in WHAT IS...not what I would prefer.
Your statement, "Around the world secular agendas are winning out over religious ones"...is only accurate if you consider having to take military action to stop "religious agendas" as a good way to "win".
Inconsequential stuff, like homo-marriage is nothing--If anything, they don't know what they are getting themselves into...the divorce lawyers must be chomping at the bit! I say...let 'em marry...they can join the heteros on the divorce roles. And other basically innocuous stuff like telling school kids the fact that some people believe the world was "created", is also more "nothing of any real consequence". But insignificant gains in that kind of piddly stuff is ALWAYS at the heart of the Atheist mantra. Meanwhile, the TRUE POWER of "religion" has had wars going on for all of known history...with new ones starting all the time. As soon as Iran gets a nuke, you can kiss Israel goodbye...all because of "religion", yet Atheists are doing an "end-zone dance" because there are very few "Sunday Blue Laws" left.
If you can't see how incredibly powerful the influence of religion was/is in this world (and much of it horribly negative)...and want to delude yourself into thinking it is somehow becoming weak...there isn't much I can say to you, as you are too out of touch with reality to debate with.
Tell the families of the people in the Trade Center, and those in Afghanistan getting killed by Islamic Fundie "suicide bombers" that see themselves as "martyrs"...that "religious influence" is weak. Oh, and Ireland is so immune to "religious influence" causing problems now that the Atheists are gaining ground...lucky for everyone you guys have squared that away. Give me a break!!
Get a clue! You guys are spitting into the wind...and when they get sick of you...you will go the same way everyone of your ilk has gone throughout human history. And THAT is the REAL FACTS!!
Problem is dearie, you play the numbers game, we show you we the godless are growing THE fastest and yet you can but deny deny deny.
In a matter of time, you will devolve into the minority and we are happy to predict this all too late but better late than never end game.
In the meantime, theists will band together as do you to try and make a case for their collective delusions.
In this chart
It will be christianity and islam that loses traction. The hindus are no threat as apart from their caste system, they are pretty much docile.
Your appeal to numbers loses credibility as you and the muslims reject the extreme POV and in xian circles RC's, EO's, JW's and mormons are not considered xian by the true believers(tm)
Hence 51% barely constitutes a majority. That chart will likely reduce to a 38% or less between xianity and islam combined. Eventually, these will melt down to cultural identities and nothing more.
This chart is anyway 12 years old and likely if anyone cared to, would be already less than 51% combined. Folk are leaving both in hordes.
I would use these charts for a general comparison and not get to hung up on exact percentages .
Numbers of believers or non-believers does not make for who is right or wrong. I would think we all understand this. However it does make a difference on social pressure on the minority.
We should not be telling the minority to sit at the back of the bus and shut up. IMHO
I would use these charts for a general comparison and not get to hung up on exact percentages .
Numbers of believers or non-believers does not make for who is right or wrong. I would think we all understand this. However it does make a difference on social pressure on the minority.
We should not be telling the minority to sit at the back of the bus and shut up. IMHO
2005 chart
Ta!
I agree with your sentiments. The numbers game is anyway irrelevant as if you take the number of literate in the two main faiths, that is likely to be less than 15% in islam and maybe 25% in xianity.
When we take stuff that is happening in Uganda against the gays by xians influenced by American evangelists they say these are not real christians.
One of the bill's loudest supporters is a charismatic pastor, Martin Ssempa, who heads a Ugandan campus AIDS eradication organization that is funded in part by the U.S. and who was associated with the global outreach of Southern California's Saddleback Church, run by Rick Warren, author of best-selling book The Purpose Driven Life. Ssempa has a penchant for burning condoms. In 2007, he organized a rally against homosexuality to protest "homosexual agents and activists" who were "infiltrating Uganda." Asked how the anti-homosexuality bill might affect the fight against HIV and AIDS, Ssempa seemed bemused. "I don't see what this bill has to do with HIV," he told TIME. Warren, who has called Uganda a "purpose-driven nation," cut ties with Ssempa in October as controversy over the bill grew.
Read more: Uganda's Anti-Gay Bill: U.S., Western Donors Keep Quiet - TIME
This is how their majorities work in real life.
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