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Calling someone sub-optimal does not sound like love to me. What is that supposed to mean anyway.
The more you protest, the more you prove my point.
+1. A sub-optimal life to me would be not being with the person I love and am attracted to because other people are blissfully ignorant enough to believe my existence is somehow flawed based on one highly irrational religious belief.
Calling someone sub-optimal does not sound like love to me. What is that supposed to mean anyway.
That something else is preferable or better. My life now is sub-optimal in many ways. Most peoples probably are, but that doesn't mean you simply giving up trying. Even if you'll never succeed a 100%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sco
The more you protest, the more you prove my point.
Because your point is framed in a way where any disagreement is likely going to prove it. You're assuming people with different sexual morality than what you approve have an unspoken hatred. So if I say nothing hateful that confirms it, because it's an unspoken hatred. So the options are to agree with your sexual ethos or be hateful. These are the only the options the pro-gay side tends to allow.
Many small-o orthodox Christians desire other options and get little support for that. I'm willing to accept different people have different systems of sexual ethics. That not everyone has to accept the ethics of orthodox Christianity, the Hasidim, Islam, Baha'i, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, or Tibetan Buddhism. I may consider my religion the most right, but what of it? I imagine many others do as well. We don't have to throw stones or say our differing beliefs mean hate to the others.
I do not hate heterosexuals even though like 90% of heterosexuals also do not obey the ethics of systems I named. I do not hate myself, or no more than is healthy, even though I don't live up to my own standards all the time. So if you see hatred of homosexuals than well that's your issue to deal with, it has virtually nothing to do with me.
Don't you think it's a little bit disingenuous to claim some Christians don't really hate gay people while they're simultaneously doing just about everything they can in their power to diminish the presence of gay people and keep them from very basic rights that honestly don't hurt anyone? It would seem to me that if the said Christians truly loved the sinner but hated the sin, then they would refrain from harmfully projecting their personal religious beliefs onto them. After all, I'm sure most Christians think Jews or Buddhist have a one way ticket to hell just because they worship differently. Yet, we're past the point where many Christians openly spew vitriol towards people of different faiths and want to deprive them of their rights (well, we're not completely there with the hubbub over Islam but that's a discussion for another thread).
I call b.s. There is entirely too much anti-gay legislation being supported primarily by religious groups in this country for you to want to sweep the rampant Christian homophobia under a rug. I think some Christians just need to own up to their incessant intolerance towards homosexuality. It seems common nowadays for some people to want to shy away from being labelled as "homophobes" when they epitomize homophobia. Homophobia isn't about being physically afraid of gay people. It's about the irrational fear that gay people somehow recruit (no matter how outlandish that is in reality) and that their presence must be diminished in order to prevent other people from becoming gay.
Heck, in the state we both live in the legislature just passed two absolutely silly laws that really reek of little other than homophobia: the "don't say gay" bill and the state legislation repealing the sexual orientation and gender identity clauses in Nashville's non-discrimination policy. These bills are quintessential examples of states legislating thinly-veiled homophobia primarily from Christians. The former is a bill that's allegedly to fix a problem that doesn't even exist. There has NEVER been an issue with elementary and middle schools teaching about homosexuality in TN public schools much less the ins and outs of gay sex. Nevertheless, we now have legislation in TN protecting against such "problems." The latter bill stripping Nashville of its non-discrimination policy is couched in the "pro-business" rhetoric. No evidence whatsoever has been presented to show that enforcing a non-discrimination policy that includes sexual orientation & gender identity is going to hurt business. In fact, plenty of U.S. cities that are doing quite well have such policies in place including some in the equally Christian conservative state of Texas. Yet, here were are in a state dragging its most promising city back to the dark ages in some kind of effort to shut up the gays. Does that sound very loving to you? How is this not "wagging the finger?"
It is true that a lot of "finger wagging" DOES happen, but I was saying that we don't need to be doing that. To me, Christiany has two big problems.
1) The "holier than thou" crowd. These are the same people who have a superior view of themselves in nearly every situation. When non-Christians see this behavior, they see the religion incorrectly and for good reason.
2) There seem to be some people out there who are against Christianity just as a matter of fact.
The Bible says that we are in the world, but we should not be OF the world. We are supposed to subdue the influence of the world (meaning sin) as much as possible. We are also supposed to see everyone the same. Unfortunately, many people don't. Sometimes I catch myself speaking badly of certain people and/or situations and have to correct myself. I have even apologized for saying negative things of people when they weren't around. They thought I was nuts, but I did the right thing, as I see it.
Since this thread is about the acceptance or non-acceptance of homosexuality, we, as Christians are not supposed to accept those actions as correct actions. We are not supposed to tell them they are wrong. Now if they ask me if I believe there actions are wrong, I will say yes, but that's because they wanted to know my opinion.
Many saw the law in Nashville about contracting with businesses that discrimiate against homosexuals as a way of saying that everyone dealing with the city has to except homosexuality as normal. The law wasn't necessary because businesses are not supposed to be not hiring someone because they are homosexual. Whether they do or not is another story.
As far as Christians hating homosexuals, we are not supposed to and I don't. People will be buttheads though. This goes back to the "holier than thou" thing. Many Christian churches are not very Christian anymore, being greatly influenced by political correctness or anti-Christians.
If I didn't address anything you want to talk about, please let me know.
I truly don't understand how a person can actually worship and follow a religion that so despises gay people? I was so naive in the past and thought that religion wanted people to love everybody and now I realize that Christianty is more about hating others than anything else How can anybody actually continue to follow this and live with yourself?
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Let's not generalize, some Christians view it as a sin, primarily the Conservative/Fundamentalist evangelical crowd. The majority of Catholics even support gay marriage, despite the church's stance on it. It's strictly a right wing conservative viewpoint that opposes it.
That phrase is not in the Bible. Gandhi said that, not the Bible.
Kinda like how during the Civil rights era, wanting blacks to sit at the back of the bus and drink from different water fountains wasn't really hate, right?
Bank robbery and murder are not comparable to 2 people who happen to have the same gentilia loving one another. Why on earth does a fleshy organ dictate who one can love?
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
God does not distinguish between genders. Why should we?
WOW! God DOES distinquish between the genders. Otherwise he wouldn't have created TWO of them. In this passage, the Lord is speaking of people who are saved, that your racial and political differences don't matter. The moral code still stands.
You missed the point with the bank robbery, but I assume you meant to miss that point. To God, all sin is the same, whether it be small or large in the human context. My point here is that I can separate what my son is from what he does.
About the "fleshly organ". If this is what you truly mean, should it be OK for a father/son, father/daughter or mother/daughter, mother/son coupling? We are simply talking about where the line is. If you are willing to accept homosexuals but not father/daughter (and I am not saying you do, just as an example), then that is where your line is.
If you want to say homosexuals have these leanings "naturally", what about pediphiles, many of whom I don't doubt, would say this is "natural" for me. Should that be allowed, if that is the case?
Also, about the "love the sinner, not the sin". That is not in the Bible, but neither is the word "rapture" nor "God help those who help themselves". No where does it say that you have to do something to get God's help. You didn't do anything to earn you salvation and you CAN'T anyway. It is not earned. Anyway, back to "love the sinner, not the sin". Ghandi's summation was just that. Everywhere in the New Testament (which begins with Jesus' birth), you find passages saying outright and implied that God loves every human to a point beyond which we can understand. He, as with any father, wants us to obey the rules and cannot tolerate indefinately disobedience of the rules. Being the untimate of perfection, He cannot let sin enter His presence. This is how Christains get the "love the sinner, hate the sin".
Why are you indicate that many or most, or any for that matter people don't appose homosexual marriage in spite of the Church's stance on it? What the church says or any person says is irrelavant. It is what God says that counts.
By the way, blacks being second class at anytime in our history WAS and IS hate.
Why do homophobes often bring up pedophilia, incest, and sometimes bestiality as if it were the same as homosexual relationships? These things are not even close to similar to a loving relationship between two consenting adults that harms no one.
Do you think that since most pedophiles and people who commit incest and bestiality are heterosexual we should make heterosexuality a crime or a sin?
It is amazing to me how much damage belief in god does to innocent people...
Why do homophobes often bring up pedophilia, incest, and sometimes bestiality as if it were the same as homosexual relationships? These things are not even close to similar to a loving relationship between two consenting adults that harms no one.
Do you think that since most pedophiles and people who commit incest and bestiality are heterosexual we should make heterosexuality a crime or a sin?
It is amazing to me how much damage belief in god does to innocent people...
There's a huge difference between two consensual adults of the same sex having relationships and a human adult having non-consensual sexual relations with a child or animal.
Equating consensual sex with non-consensual sex is like equating sex with rape.
That something else is preferable or better. My life now is sub-optimal in many ways. Most peoples probably are, but that doesn't mean you simply giving up trying. Even if you'll never succeed a 100%.
Because your point is framed in a way where any disagreement is likely going to prove it. You're assuming people with different sexual morality than what you approve have an unspoken hatred. So if I say nothing hateful that confirms it, because it's an unspoken hatred. So the options are to agree with your sexual ethos or be hateful. These are the only the options the pro-gay side tends to allow.
Many small-o orthodox Christians desire other options and get little support for that. I'm willing to accept different people have different systems of sexual ethics. That not everyone has to accept the ethics of orthodox Christianity, the Hasidim, Islam, Baha'i, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, or Tibetan Buddhism. I may consider my religion the most right, but what of it? I imagine many others do as well. We don't have to throw stones or say our differing beliefs mean hate to the others.
I do not hate heterosexuals even though like 90% of heterosexuals also do not obey the ethics of systems I named. I do not hate myself, or no more than is healthy, even though I don't live up to my own standards all the time. So if you see hatred of homosexuals than well that's your issue to deal with, it has virtually nothing to do with me.
I am so sorry that you can't see how filled with hate you really are. Only someone that is filled with hatred toward gays would make a statement that being gay is a defacto sub-optimal life. I have much more respect for the people that are at least willing to admit that they hate homosexuals.
It is amazing to me how much damage belief in god does to innocent people...
Harm that belief in God does!!! Have you seen the state of the nation since the 1960's when God has been waning in the hearts and minds of the people and its leaders.
Charles Sands
37129
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How can anybody actually continue to follow this and live with yourself?
