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I don't know if anyone has already mentioned this, but the proof is clear, and you have to ask yourself this question - Do you think Matthew, Luke, Mark, John, Peter, James, Paul, Timothy, and others, would have wasted their time writing the New Testament about who Jesus is, and what He did in the 33 years He was on earth, and what He continued to do after He was crucified, and His resurrection on the 3rd day?
Let's not forget also that some of the writers of the New Testament gave their all, including their lives to let the world know about Jesus, do you think they would have done that if Jesus wasn't who He said He is?
I don't know if anyone has already mentioned this, but the proof is clear, and you have to ask yourself this question - Do you think Matthew, Luke, Mark, John, Peter, James, Paul, Timothy, and others, would have wasted their time writing the New Testament about who Jesus is, and what He did in the 33 years He was on earth, and what He continued to do after He was crucified, and His resurrection on the 3rd day?
The only issue is except for about 1/2 of Pauls writings, we do not know who any of the NT Authors were. None of the books cover the full 33 years of Jesus(as)'s life on earth. None of the books of the NT carry any reliability as to having the writings of actual eye witnesses.
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Originally Posted by Magnum Mike
Let's not forget also that some of the writers of the New Testament gave their all, including their lives to let the world know about Jesus, do you think they would have done that if Jesus wasn't who He said He is?
Using that argument nearly all if not all religions have had people die for their beliefs, is that proof those religions are true?
I don't know if anyone has already mentioned this, but the proof is clear, and you have to ask yourself this question - Do you think Matthew, Luke, Mark, John, Peter, James, Paul, Timothy, and others, would have wasted their time writing the New Testament about who Jesus is, and what He did in the 33 years He was on earth, and what He continued to do after He was crucified, and His resurrection on the 3rd day?
Let's not forget also that some of the writers of the New Testament gave their all, including their lives to let the world know about Jesus, do you think they would have done that if Jesus wasn't who He said He is?
You probably should have read the entire thread before posting. We've covered this ground, and your argument is a weak one, only convincing to those unfamiliar with the history of the Bible and its formation.
If those 'miracles' DID happen then those who wrote history could not have kept it quiet. It would have been impossible. The Bible itself even claims that Jesus' fame spread. Imagine traders from other parts of the world. They would have taken the stories back to their own countries, told others who would have told other. We should see evidence of this Christian man-god all over the world
Hey, to each his own, Rafius. Believe what you want. I certainly have no great interest in trying to change your mind. The way I see it, though, the gospel accounts are essentially histories. I'm not sure what you consider a "history" and what you don't. To me, it's highly unlikely that one third of the world's population today would embrace the teachings of someone who didn't even exist. I'm not saying that that this is any proof that He was who He claimed to be. I'm just saying that it seems to me that it would be pretty hard for a religion to grow to the size of Christianity if the person it was built around never even existed. Sure, today many people are just Christian-by-birth, but during the first hundred years after Christ's death, the number of believers would have to have increased pretty dramatically in order for the religion to even survive. The people who became Christians back in the first century would have very likely known that He existed. Anyway, that's just how I see it. I've pretty much said all I have to say on the subject.
One problem with the idea of the gospels as history is that they "record" events at LEAST forty years after the supposed events took place. The point has been made before, but this is the equivalent of me writing a book about Vietnam. I wasn't there. I've heard numerous stories though. I could record the oral stories of those around me. How would I know if someone was added or subtracted? How would I know the actual events (assuming there had been no video cameras, photographs, or radios)?
The book of Mark, the earliest of the Gospels, is riddled with problems from geographic errors to time line difficulties. Matthew and Luke smoothed some of that out in their subsequent writings.
Compare these books to the earliest written NT books - the Pauline books. The picture drawn of Jesus of Paul (in the books scholars agree were written by Paul, that is) is different from that painted by the apostles. Why is that? Because, in all probability, few if any of the writers of the NT books ever met Jesus. They recorded oral traditions, the teachings of their groups, and their own personal beliefs.
There is just not enough nonreligious material (etchings, scrolls, etc.) to convince me - or I suspect others - of the historicity of Jesus. Perhaps someday there will be. I'm open to that. I mean, shoot, the existence of Pilate was long doubted until a piece of limestone was found with his name on it. A true scientist or historian or IMO skeptic cannot dismiss evidence not presented. I await more discoveries with an open mind; however, the "evidence" presented in this thread has done every little to illuminate the question.
Jesus's credentials for his existence are impeccable...
For a start his arrival was foretold centuries before just as he said, - "All things about me in the law of Moses,the Prophets and the Psalms,must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44)
And when he arrived he didn't skulk in some underground hideout, he travelled all over Israel for 3 long years in front of the people and the occupying Roman Army, that's a lot of eyewitnesses - "I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)
And "Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25)
And he pulled crowds of over 4000 and 5000 at two appearances alone (Matt 15:32, Matt 14:13)
Even the Koran written some 600 years later dare not deny Jesus was something special:- "Allah.. exalted some messengers above others and gave miracles to Jesus the son of Mary and strengthened him with the holy spirit" (Koran 2:253)
You are correct if you choose not to believe then there can be no heaven. So your right excercise your right not to believe. I've lost nothing, my plot is the belief in jeseus christ. Our views are like night and day. Either way my jesus save your soul and when your time comes you can explain to him why you chose not to believe.
Did you guys read the whole thread? We're reinventing the wheel here.
Waymarker, some of the quotes you used contradict verses in Mark, which was written before the others. You may want to check on that.
Jetset, you can believe whatever you want to believe. I'm not here to deconvert you. The OP was "How do we know Jesus ever lived at all?" Your answer appears to be "because I believe it". That's fine, but that's not convincing to anyone but you.
Jesus's credentials for his existence are impeccable...
For a start his arrival was foretold centuries before just as he said, - "All things about me in the law of Moses,the Prophets and the Psalms,must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44)
There is internal evidence that the prphecies appear to foretell Jesus specifically (apart from general messianic expectations) because of prophecy quotes taken out of their context and made into event of Jesus' supposed life. The Nativity and crucifixion has examples of this and so does the death of Judas where the quotes had to be altered to make them suitable.
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And when he arrived he didn't skulk in some underground hideout, he travelled all over Israel for 3 long years in front of the people and the occupying Roman Army, that's a lot of eyewitnesses - "I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)
And "Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25)
And he pulled crowds of over 4000 and 5000 at two appearances alone (Matt 15:32, Matt 14:13)
That is just one more reason why it is odd that there is no worthwhile or reliable historical account of Jesus and his supposed huge crowd -pulling activities.
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Even the Koran written some 600 years later dare not deny Jesus was something special:- "Allah.. exalted some messengers above others and gave miracles to Jesus the son of Mary and strengthened him with the holy spirit" (Koran 2:253)
The Quran was based on the Bible claims and fitted the Christian claims into this as well, while of course denying that Jesus was anything more than just another prophet.
None of this really stands up as reasons to believe the gospel story as reliable.
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