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I agree - children should not be punished for the crimes of their parents.
I assume you're referencing Original Sin - the concept that was a later Christian and Augustianian development, and can not be found anywhere in the Hebrew Bible?
Now, in the Hebrew Bible - we DO find many instances in which a child is punished for the sins of the parents, but this is because back in the Ancient Near East the family was considered a single unit, or entity. They didn't have ideas of extreme individualism that mark our modern age. So one way of looking at it contextually is "the Smith family committed a wrong and must pay" - even if it was little Billy, or Grandpa Joe. I don't like this idea, but this was another time and another place and another people.
That having been said - some of the later prophets (philosophizing during the Exile) put forth the idea that children should not be punished for the sins of their parents. This was an attempt to remove the guilt that Mannaseh had brought upon Judah by his sins (and thus resulted in the Exile - according to the Biblical books), and allow the exiled Israelites to have a glimmer of hope. The hope was that if they were good, then corporate responsibility and punishment would no longer apply to them, and they would be judged as individuals. This Exilic belief became a popular one. No longer, the prophets said, should a family's children be punished to the 7th generation because of something Papa Joe did.
But then the Christians went and ruined it all with their doctrine of Original Sin - which is not found in the Hebrew Bible, and actually goes against everything the Hebrew Bible eventually said about corporate responsibility and punishment.
I agree.
When Christianity usurped the Jewish God, they reversed much of the Jewish interpretations.
I E. Eden went from the Jewish view of mans elevation, to one of a fall.
More $$$$$$$$$$ in guilt than not for Christian coffers.
There may be more if I actually miss-read your other post.
A simple yes or no to this might do it.
Is it good justice for a law maker to say, do as I say and not as I do, since I am exempt from my own laws.
Regards
DL
I don't think that can be answered with a simple 'yes' or 'no' - the problem can't be reduced to a simple maxim.
"Justice" must first be defined. Was it Voltaire who said "If you wish to converse with me, define your terms"? This isn't meant as an arrogant comeback or an attempt at belittlement: it states that any discussion must first determine that all parties are agreed on what they are trying to discuss. If there is disagreement on what the key terms mean, then the discussion will not be fruitful and it will get nowhere - all stemming from a lack of specificity.
In my previous posts, I tried to show that a ruler has the ability to break his own laws, since it was he who made them in the first place. As long as this doesn't interfere with the original intention of the laws - then justice is still active. I understand where you're coming from, DL, but I don't think it's an effective argument against God and his justice. And I say that as an Atheist who once used that argument and gave it up long ago.
All you guys who struggle with the question in the OP need to do yourselves a big favor, one that will forever answer the question you have on how to reconcile the vengeful, punishing, capricious, genocidal, jealous, murderous Yawheh of the Old Testmament with the message of Love that Jesus taught.
And.......that favor is: to simply realize that the vast majority of those O.T. stories about God's Wrath never actually happened. Hello? They are only the attempts of an ancient, nomadic, and yes, largely iliterate people to relate to us, through the use of allegory, symbolism, myth, and metahor, their ideas of their God Experience. To read the O.T. like yo would a history text book is absurd. Further, and ironically as well, you miss the real message and actually get LESS out of it than do us progressive Christians who see the Old Testament for what it really is. A Mythology Book, written over the span of hundreds of years, by dozens of authors.
Jesus, on the other hand, was a superb rabbi who was as full of God as any human man could ever be, and his messages of love and forgiveness are real and can be applied in your lives today, yes, even in this modern world, in such a way that you too can be a Child of God.
Which is what He was trying to tell us all along.
All you guys who struggle with the question in the OP need to do yourselves a big favor, one that will forever answer the question you have on how to reconcile the vengeful, punishing, capricious, genocidal, jealous, murderous Yawheh of the Old Testmament with the message of Love that Jesus taught.
And.......that favor is: to simply realize that the vast majority of those O.T. stories about God's Wrath never actually happened. Hello? They are only the attempts of an ancient, nomadic, and yes, largely iliterate people to relate to us, through the use of allegory, symbolism, myth, and metahor, their ideas of their God Experience. To read the O.T. like yo would a history text book is absurd. Further, and ironically as well, you miss the real message and actually get LESS out of it than do us progressive Christians who see the Old Testament for what it really is. A Mythology Book, written over the span of hundreds of years, by dozens of authors.
Jesus, on the other hand, was a superb rabbi who was as full of God as any human man could ever be, and his messages of love and forgiveness are real and can be applied in your lives today, yes, even in this modern world, in such a way that you too can be a Child of God.
Which is what He was trying to tell us all along.
So to sum up:
Old Testament = myth
New Testament = not-myth?
Yahweh = angry god
Jesus = not-angry god?
Prophets = party killers
Apostles = "Hey, our bro' turns water into wine": not-party killers?
I don't think that can be answered with a simple 'yes' or 'no' - the problem can't be reduced to a simple maxim.
"Justice" must first be defined. Was it Voltaire who said "If you wish to converse with me, define your terms"? This isn't meant as an arrogant comeback or an attempt at belittlement: it states that any discussion must first determine that all parties are agreed on what they are trying to discuss. If there is disagreement on what the key terms mean, then the discussion will not be fruitful and it will get nowhere - all stemming from a lack of specificity.
In my previous posts, I tried to show that a ruler has the ability to break his own laws, since it was he who made them in the first place. As long as this doesn't interfere with the original intention of the laws - then justice is still active. I understand where you're coming from, DL, but I don't think it's an effective argument against God and his justice. And I say that as an Atheist who once used that argument and gave it up long ago.
Which of the words used do you need defined?
They are all dictionary words.
Are those definitions not to your liking?
If not, give yours and I cannot see where I would not agree if you are anywhere near the usual definition.
if i cross on the red and get hit did god strike me down?
noah modeled for his neighbors, what they should be doing,they laughed and jeered.
not gods fault not noahs fault.
i did not club med i did not hit the mall, did not refi the house, made double mortgage payments, scrimped, i did not buy a new boat and give the wife credit cards. my neighbors they all lost their house, i did not. did god strike them down?
Last edited by Huckleberry3911948; 10-16-2011 at 05:41 PM..
They were warned, for over 120 years. They taught their children the same evil they did. The parents killed their own children.
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