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If I've been following the conversation at all accurately, I believe Vizio's creator was created by Rafius' magic fairies - who needed no creator.
That's as good a theory as any.
By the way, I'm not saying there isn't a God. I really don't know, I'm agnostic, basically. But there's nothing saying God wasn't created. If that makes sense. He/it could even be a focus of energy of the belief of people, for all we know. And for all Vizio knows.
Certainly that would explain why, if He is real, God could be imperfect, since people are imperfect.
Just a wild theory but no wilder than the alternative, I believe. Who really does know?
That doesn't mean this universe didn't begin from the ashes of a prior one and so on without beginning.
Exactly!
Quote:
Why can't the mass and energy needed for our universe be eternal? Why can't the universe be in a constant state of death and rebirth eternally?
I have challenged Vizio to start a new thread so that he can explain to us his claim (or rather ICR's claim) that prevents the universe from having always been there in some form or other. He doesn't appear to want to accept the challenge. I wonder why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
How did it all begin?
You have yet to show that it did. As I've already told you, when you can prove that there was a time when the universe wasn't there in some manner, shape or form, THEN will be the time to discuss how it all began.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
The only possible answer is that the universe was created.
No, that is not the only possibility. The other possibility is that it has always been there in some form or other. Even if we grant you a 'creation', you are still left with the question of who the creator was. You would need to supply verifiable testable evidence that it was your god Yahweh and not my magic fairies. Good luck with that!
This was covered about 6 pages ago. At some point there was a cause/creator that wasn't created/caused.
Around and around indeed. This debate gets nowhere as neither argument seems to answer the question adequately
We do not know enough about the universe or its origins or how matter functions at the very basic level to be able to make suggestions.
The only comments I can make are threefold
(i) (just for a change) a fully formed functioning intelligence without a cause of its own seems hard to believe.
(j) matter which is demonstrably made of nothing as near as makes no difference could feasibly come from nothing, though there are problems with that, too -why don't we see it happening now?
(k) the argument is not only unprovable or undisprovable either way, but it is irrelevant. Maybe there is a qualia -consciousness -field which we could call 'God' and maybe it could be an ongoing of basic matter appearing out of nothingness with more a numerical value than substance, but that has nothing to do with the specific Jesus-god claims of the Bible. Or any other god -claims.
(l) (ok -that's four - I'm an atheist - not a mathematician ) Where one does not know one way or the other whether a god exists (or not) or even what sort of 'god' it is, one can only logically and rationally not believe in it until we do know. That's all the rationale needed for disbelief in the god -claim: which is what atheism is.
Trying to prove God through the backdoor with miracles or personal experience or NDE's is invalid since nobody knows for sure whether these things are supernatural (and even then, that doesn't mean 'from God') or natural - like 'voices' once thought to be angelic.
The First cause argument is one of the better ones for 'God' but only because it can't (yet) be shown up to be false, like the Bible.
We know that the Buddha allowed into existence [through It's glorious and boundless mercy] all the Demiurges and other Divas, including the Jewish Diva and its diva subordinates and Greek Divas and their diva, semi-diva, and made-diva subordinates.
I have challenged Vizio to start a new thread so that he can explain to us his claim (or rather ICR's claim) that prevents the universe from having always been there in some form or other. He doesn't appear to want to accept the challenge. I wonder why.
You have yet to show that it did. As I've already told you, when you can prove that there was a time when the universe wasn't there in some manner, shape or form, THEN will be the time to discuss how it all began.
No, that is not the only possibility. The other possibility is that it has always been there in some form or other. Even if we grant you a 'creation', you are still left with the question of who the creator was. You would need to supply verifiable testable evidence that it was your god Yahweh and not my magic fairies. Good luck with that!
There's a great episode of Matt Dillahunty's podcast where the caller, as a quick throwaway premise before the real argument, says "now, you agree that everything has a beginning, right?", then Matt has to talk over him as he goes on to his real point. It goes on for 15 minutes and this poor fellow just can't get it into his head that no, everything doesn't necessarily have a beginning.
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) Where one does not know one way or the other whether a god exists (or not) or even what sort of 'god' it is, one can only logically and rationally not believe in it until we do know. That's all the rationale needed for disbelief in the god -claim: which is what atheism is.
