I feel as if I just had a revelation (hell, atheist, bible)
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No, not the type where a dead middle eastern entity drops down on a cloud while I'm standing in line at Wendy's or anything. Goodness' sake, surely I pay my therapist enough for him to keep me from tipping that far over.
But it is a revelation about Jesus, if Jesus existed. And if there's a God. Let me explain...
I simply haven't been able to make myself believe in an OT-style God...or even the New and Improved Everloving NT God. It has never meshed. Never, ever. The illogic of an all-knowing and all-seeing being v. "free will" v. loving v. Evil Smelly Lake of Fire, etc., etc., etc. just doesn't fit in my mind, so let's just get that part out of the way.
As for a "something" controlling the whole universe in peaceful incense-scented love, I tried that belief for a while too before just...letting go entirely. I just do not believe there's an all-knowing, all-powerful God out there.
But what if there is...some kind of a god, anyway? One that's very imperfect and can make things but sometimes that creation goes awry (hello, humanity...oh, and the duck-billed platypus? And Justin Beiber) through no fault of the creation's, but through workmanship that wasn't perfect after all? (Yes, my meandering mind stole that idea from Gnostic belief but I never thought of this all together. Bear with me.) A creator the way we as parents are creators, with great intentions but our creations surprising us, and not always in good ways?
This paragraph ^ is necessary for the postulation of this "revelation" I had in the bathtub just now. Shaving one's legs gives plenty of opportunity for rambling thought. And I was thinking about what I'd just posted on another thread about Jesus' "sacrifice" and how bloody and gross and archaic the idea was and how a God who could "do anything," literally, should never have had to resort to such a sideshow when a thought popped into my head...
What if there is a God, and he just never really could relate to how much we might be hurting here on earth, and so he came down in a person's body...not to "take on the sins of the world" or "as an accomplishment" but because after X amount of thousands of years of humanity, he finally wanted to know what we were all really whining about?
We all know a story or two about, say, a child who has been whining and crying about a stomach ache and the parents just assume he's being a drama queen and it turns out he has appendicitis or an intestinal blockage or something. What if God had been thinking of us that way -- loud, complaining, disobedient -- but finally he realized that he couldn't really know how much we were hurting since he'd never been human?
So he came down in a person's body and for the first time ever felt REAL fear, REAL helplessness, REAL cold and heat, REAL hunger, REAL poverty, and eventually REAL human hatred directed emotionally and physically at him.
Maybe that's the idea of "saving"...that God had this experience and, realizing it really is no picnic to go through these things without ever "disobeying" by, for instance, making things more comfortable, safer, etc. for ourselves, ever after went easier on whom he fingered to wind up in the Lake of Belching Gross Horrific Fire...or wherever? Not that we had to stare at the sky and "simply believe" and "trust in Jesus", etc., etc., etc. or we'd burn up? ETA: And it would certainly help to explain God the Great and Terrible of the OT with his floods and pox and boils and barrenness and curses and stonings....v. God the Nice and Snuggle Bear of the NT.
Sorry to ramble and this probably all sounds like nonsense to atheists and to Christians alike. But...now I'm wondering. What an interesting story this would make! Maybe I should write a book based on this hypothesis.
Actually, it's at least an interesting hypothesis. Not sure how we'd test it, aside from literally asking The Big Man On The White Cloud:
(Assuming a slightly British accent for drah-matic effect...)
"Say, ewlde Chep.... So sorry to bother you, but could you p'rawpps tell me/us: are you real, and maybe just trying on our monkey suits for fit and feel?"
But sadly, even though He's apparently completely responsible for all of what we see and even do, He NEVER seems to wanna get involved...
Of course, maybe He's just NOT THERE, huh, JerZ? But then, we HAVE sorta beaten that one to death already, haven't we?
Good thread. Great humorous writing too! Let's see Wha-Happunz...
Indeed, there remains that possibility (leaning toward probability, but that's just my opinion. And, well, documented history's). But...an interesting thought nonetheless. Repped ya, you gave me a giggle!
It appears that you exchanged that which you rejected (the old man in the sky) for what you rejected (the old man in the sky).
I note the "He came down" bit as evidence that you still believe this God being an entity apart from the world.
Doesn't seem much like an epiphany to me.
However, if you had come to a kind of understanding that this God is us (a part of us, including us, and also outside of us); that the all-knowing, all powerful, and ever present is not exactly what the popular interpretation of these terms are but giving explanation that God resides in the heads of every person and flows between as well as among people; and that the fault of not understanding life, creation, and even a relationship with a God of any kind lies within the ultra-limited and severely damaged brain of the human individual.
It appears that you exchanged that which you rejected (the old man in the sky) for what you rejected (the old man in the sky).
I note the "He came down" bit as evidence that you still believe this God being an entity apart from the world.
Doesn't seem much like an epiphany to me.
However, if you had come to a kind of understanding that this God is us (a part of us, including us, and also outside of us); that the all-knowing, all powerful, and ever present is not exactly what the popular interpretation of these terms are but giving explanation that God resides in the heads of every person and flows between as well as among people; and that the fault of not understanding life, creation, and even a relationship with a God of any kind lies within the ultra-limited and severely damaged brain of the human individual.
Now that would have been an epiphany!
I didn't want an epiphany. Just a revelation. If I want an epiphany I think I'm going to have to stay in the bathtub for longer next time. For a transcendental experience, I'm thinking I'll have to marinate in that thing overnight at least. I hope at some point somebody in my house will at least check and make sure my nostrils are above water.
As for your idea: BTDT, that was my incens-y hippiesh "in all of us the Force is...it surrounds us, binds us it does" God force phase I described above. ETA: But I pos repped ya just to be friendly.
The only reaon God is assigned all the Omni's and perfecction is becauseof our human vanity and hubris. If we are going to acknowledge a God . . . He's darnw ell better qualify according to our standards. It never seems to dawn on anyone that God "just is" and whatever capabilities or traits He has "just are" . . . and we have no say in it at all. Since ongoing change in our entire reality is unavoidable (accelerating expansion of our universe) . . . God must be alive and growing . . . NOT static. God is all that there is . . . and it includes us.(Omnipresence) So whatever happens to us happens to God. "Whatsoever ye do to these the least of my creatures ye do to me."Since we are imperfect that kind of taints God's perfection, no? The formation of our consciousness as pure energy (light-squared existence) means that God (and our unconscious Self) can know what we are going to do before we become aware of it and do it here in our sub-light existence. That is not exactly Omniscience . . . but close. Just saying.
JerZ, Honey, you made my day! I'm glad to know i'm not the only one who's brain runs away with itself frequently.
Seriously, if indeed your scenario did happen, it was a failure on God's part. People still suffer. Apparently, he could care less about the human condition because it isn't getting any better, just worse.
No, not the type where a dead middle eastern entity drops down on a cloud while I'm standing in line at Wendy's or anything. Goodness' sake, surely I pay my therapist enough for him to keep me from tipping that far over.
But it is a revelation about Jesus, if Jesus existed. And if there's a God. Let me explain...
I simply haven't been able to make myself believe in an OT-style God...or even the New and Improved Everloving NT God. It has never meshed. Never, ever. The illogic of an all-knowing and all-seeing being v. "free will" v. loving v. Evil Smelly Lake of Fire, etc., etc., etc. just doesn't fit in my mind, so let's just get that part out of the way.
As for a "something" controlling the whole universe in peaceful incense-scented love, I tried that belief for a while too before just...letting go entirely. I just do not believe there's an all-knowing, all-powerful God out there.
But what if there is...some kind of a god, anyway? One that's very imperfect and can make things but sometimes that creation goes awry (hello, humanity...oh, and the duck-billed platypus? And Justin Beiber) through no fault of the creation's, but through workmanship that wasn't perfect after all? (Yes, my meandering mind stole that idea from Gnostic belief but I never thought of this all together. Bear with me.) A creator the way we as parents are creators, with great intentions but our creations surprising us, and not always in good ways?
This paragraph ^ is necessary for the postulation of this "revelation" I had in the bathtub just now. Shaving one's legs gives plenty of opportunity for rambling thought. And I was thinking about what I'd just posted on another thread about Jesus' "sacrifice" and how bloody and gross and archaic the idea was and how a God who could "do anything," literally, should never have had to resort to such a sideshow when a thought popped into my head...
What if there is a God, and he just never really could relate to how much we might be hurting here on earth, and so he came down in a person's body...not to "take on the sins of the world" or "as an accomplishment" but because after X amount of thousands of years of humanity, he finally wanted to know what we were all really whining about?
We all know a story or two about, say, a child who has been whining and crying about a stomach ache and the parents just assume he's being a drama queen and it turns out he has appendicitis or an intestinal blockage or something. What if God had been thinking of us that way -- loud, complaining, disobedient -- but finally he realized that he couldn't really know how much we were hurting since he'd never been human?
So he came down in a person's body and for the first time ever felt REAL fear, REAL helplessness, REAL cold and heat, REAL hunger, REAL poverty, and eventually REAL human hatred directed emotionally and physically at him.
Maybe that's the idea of "saving"...that God had this experience and, realizing it really is no picnic to go through these things without ever "disobeying" by, for instance, making things more comfortable, safer, etc. for ourselves, ever after went easier on whom he fingered to wind up in the Lake of Belching Gross Horrific Fire...or wherever? Not that we had to stare at the sky and "simply believe" and "trust in Jesus", etc., etc., etc. or we'd burn up? ETA: And it would certainly help to explain God the Great and Terrible of the OT with his floods and pox and boils and barrenness and curses and stonings....v. God the Nice and Snuggle Bear of the NT.
Sorry to ramble and this probably all sounds like nonsense to atheists and to Christians alike. But...now I'm wondering. What an interesting story this would make! Maybe I should write a book based on this hypothesis.
Anyway, what do you all think?
When I read this post earlier, a thought crossed my mind, what if the jesus story was feminine and the olde society matriarch?
Because women have a better connection with their offspring and are more empathetic than men are, seeing we are merely sperm donors and the women do the actual "creating" and nurturing part we would not have had anything like what was portrayed in the OT or NT.
Men have to much time on their hands and this is why they make war with each other and the like.
Evolution would probably have had a better kick start so to speak as if women were the sole instigators of which males they would breed with, they would ess choose the the best of their "concubines".
If you look at other animal species where the male plays no part in the raring of offspring, were men to be allowed to function in proportion to their contribution to reproduction IOW one solitary sperm then the world would be a better place.
So weird the biblegod made this erroneous error choosing man over woman for his alleged moral code. As much as I like to think women are illogical, we men are mostly to blame for that. My own wife amazes me all too often with her foresight.
By rights, our larger physique suggests we should be the tillers of the land and not women who are noticeably smaller but somehow man got this idea that because he is bigger, he is better and as such god must be a male.
Perhaps in a matriarchal society of yore, godz would never have been invented.
When I read this post earlier, a thought crossed my mind, what if the jesus story was feminine and the olde society matriarch?
Because women have a better connection with their offspring and are more empathetic than men are, seeing we are merely sperm donors and the women do the actual "creating" and nurturing part we would not have had anything like what was portrayed in the OT or NT.
Men have to much time on their hands and this is why they make war with each other and the like.
Evolution would probably have had a better kick start so to speak as if women were the sole instigators of which males they would breed with, they would ess choose the the best of their "concubines".
If you look at other animal species where the male plays no part in the raring of offspring, were men to be allowed to function in proportion to their contribution to reproduction IOW one solitary sperm then the world would be a better place.
So weird the biblegod made this erroneous error choosing man over woman for his alleged moral code. As much as I like to think women are illogical, we men are mostly to blame for that. My own wife amazes me all too often with her foresight.
By rights, our larger physique suggests we should be the tillers of the land and not women who are noticeably smaller but somehow man got this idea that because he is bigger, he is better and as such god must be a male.
Perhaps in a matriarchal society of yore, godz would never have been invented.
Your wife sounds amazing!
She's one lucky lady to have a husband who thinks so highly of her too!
She's one lucky lady to have a husband who thinks so highly of her too!
Excellent post.
Thank you but I think I am the lucky one, been together 29 years this Feb. We met in 83 and married in 86
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Yes! Looking for alternate possibilites....
If I want an epiphany I think I'm going to have to stay in the bathtub for longer next time. For a transcendental experience, I'm thinking I'll have to marinate in that thing overnight at least. I hope at some point somebody in my house will at least check and make sure my nostrils are above water.
ETA: But I pos repped ya just to be friendly. 
