The latest in the "Ask a _____" series.....Ask a gay Christian. (prophet, Holy Spirit)

[Pathwalker]

Originally Posted by PhillyChief

Would you want to be "cured"?
If yes, is it because of your religious beliefs?

Yes, I would want to be "cured". I've ALWAYS said if there was a pill you could take, or a magic button to push, that would make a person straight, I would take that pill or push that button.

Yes, it would be because of my religious beliefs.

[PhillyChief]

I'm sorry to hear that. It must wreak havoc on your sense of self worth to be something you feel your god doesn't like.

[Pathwalker]

Originally Posted by yayoi

Thank you for starting this thread WCRob. I hope you find the peace you are looking for as well.

I want to know how do you deal with people who say you are not a Christian because of the way you are?

I ask them to show me their credentials which qualifies them to be a judge. I also ask them if they have ever walked a mile in my shoes, or been inside my heart, soul, and mind in such a way that would make them think they somehow know me better than I know myself.

God knows the heart. That's all that matters. If they can't deal with that, it's THEIR problem.

[Miss Blue]

Rob,something just crossed my small foolish mind..Paul never said what his thorn in the side was did he? Whatever it was, he didn't let it come between himself and his life that he chose to preach the gospel. Maybe we all have thorns in our sides and let them interfere with our lives and our relationship with God..Just something to think about and maybe study about..

[sun]

WCRob, My question does not pertain to you being a Christian, but rather about the homosexual interpretation regarding the nature and quality of the sexual act, and it's effect on the person.
I would imagine that in a gay's mind & heart, that the gay person would be able to recognize some sort of a distinction between having gay sex vs. straight sex. While the sexual act itself might be vaguely similar, is their any recognition of a qualitative distinction? Would the distinction be both physical or mental, both, or none?
Does the gay person's feelings about the type of distinction about their sexual act leave one feeling remorseful, or regretful, or lacking, or completely satisfied or just good enough? Does the gay person ever feel like they're missing out on the "real thing" which may have been intended by God for some but not for others?
Would you think that any of these distinctions could cause some gays to decide to try to intentionally change their homosexual orientation over time despite their sexual preference? Or is the emotional/physical distaste of having "normal" sex too much of an overpowering reason causing some gay persons homosexual orientation to begin with?
If the relative lack of attraction and emotional fullfillment with the opposite sex are reasons for a person's homosexuality, what about the quality of the sexual act? Could it ever be missed or does the quality and purpose of the sexual act simply begin to not matter?
Does any of this cause any anger issues towards God, or does it result in the homosexual feeling even closer to God, or does one at least feel as close to God than as if they were straight?
I realize that the answers to these questions may be different for everyone, and here I am asking only you.
God bless you for even considering answering these very personal questions. I don't understand what kind of sexual & emotional stress that gays experience, but the answers to these questions might help to clarify some.

[Sage of Sagle]

Having gay Christian friends, I would not deem to feel worthy to judge what's in their heart.

It's a sin to be gay (which it is according to the Bible). It's also a sin to covet, lie, be gluttonous, drink to excess, etc. I can think of any of a dozen things I'm guilty of that would bar me from making any judgements about someone who is gay.

I'm sorry, but saying "you can't be gay and a Christian" just smacks of someone so blind to the fact that ALL HAVE SINNED....so if you struggle with being gay, having gay feelings (whether or not you've acted on it), or such, well....welcome to the struggle we all have with our personal vices. Mine are difficult for me, yours are difficult for you.

WCROB....the place where I admire you is that you KNOW you'll take a lot of heat from the Christian community for choosing to follow Christ while struggling with this issue...where the "Christian Army" is the only one who shoots its wounded soldiers, eh? And the Christian who is an alcoholic, or wife beater, or cheat, or compulsive liar, or coveter, gets to feel superior to you.

I think the only place where gay Christians need to be a bit cautious is to say that it's NOT a sin. If you reject the Bible's authority, then obviously one can say that being gay isn't a "sin" or isn't "wrong". But if you accept the Bible, you must accept what it says in that matter and acknowledge what it says about your particular type of sin issue. So I would be careful about getting too tight with other gay Christians who are claiming to follow the Bible as God's word yet rejecting any place it condemns that lifestyle.

For me personally, I think some people are really predisposed to being attracted to the same sex (whether butch or not), but I think you choose what to do with it. People in my wife's family are predisposed to alcoholism, but they choose to fight it...some win, some don't.

Thanks for being so open about your feelings on the issue.

[Pathwalker]

Originally Posted by b. frank

Yes, me too. And I have more questions.
I have a gay Christian friend, but I am not close enough to him to feel comfortable asking him about his religion. So...

How do you find Christian fellowship?

Well, I actually don't go to church right now. That's a whole different subject, but basically at this point in my life I'm in a process of trying to discern where God wants me to be. I do NOT consider myself Protestant, but I'm also not Catholic or Orthodox. I lean more toward Catholic and Orthodox teachings, but because I still have some "issues" with them, I haven't really decided to fully convert. I likewise have a lot of issues with Protestantism, primarily the multitude of different interpretations of the Bible with respect to various subjects. There isn't any real cohesiveness among Protestant denominations, other than that they "agree on the majors". But some of those "majors" different significantly from what the Catholic and Orthodox churches teach. So I'm really not involved in any sort of Christian fellowship right now. I guess you could say I'm standing back away from the church, and observing all that is going on in Christendom these days, and I can't help but disagree with much of what I see. Yet, I still very firmly place my hope and trust in Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

Originally Posted by b. frank

Do you have to go to a "special" church where you are accepted?

I suppose I answered this above. I will say this, however: There are more and more churches these days which are opening up to gays and lesbians, so it probably wouldn't be that hard to find a place where I was accepted. Mostly that would be within the Metropolitan Community Church, Church of Christ and Unitarian Church. There are certain congregations within other denominations which are more welcoming and affirming - such as the Presbyterians, Methodists and Lutherans. And we all know about the Episcopalian Church. But as a whole, those denominations don't officially support homosexuality.

Originally Posted by b. frank

Do you go to a "regular" church and stay closeted?

When I was going to church regularly, some people knew I was gay - but I didn't really approve of homosexuality then. I repressed it as much as I could, but I did slip at times and would "backslide", as they say. I eventually stopped attending that church, and off and on over the years I was involved in one "relationship" or another, or having one-night flings. But the last time I had sex with anyone was in 1992. Since that time, when I WOULD go to church, it was a nondenominational church, and I was completely in the closet. I told no one. But then again, the church was so huge, I really didn't know anyone or get involved, nor did I make any friends.

I should note that I DO want to return to church some day, but I really want to make sure it is the church God wants me to attend - a church that has TRUE doctrine. That might be the Catholic or Orthodox church, or perhaps another nondenominational church - I don't know. But at that time, I will remain in the closet and only reveal it to people I know I could trust.

Originally Posted by b. frank

Or are there ANY "regular" Christian churches out there that you can attend while being openly gay? If so, are you comfortable there?

I'm not sure what you mean by "regular" church. To the best of my knowledge, aside from what I mentioned above about the MCC, Unitarian Church and CoC - or the sporadic congregations of Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans or others that were welcoming and affirming - there really aren't any churches where I would feel comfortable as an openly gay man. Which, BTW, I'm not. I AM a celibate gay man.

Originally Posted by b. frank

The Christian churches that I know about would not tolerate an openly gay person among the congregation (unless, of course, they are there to be cured).

I've attended a MCC before, and it was STRANGE, to say the least. I mean, in fellowship after the services, there would be various food and drinks for people as they gathered together to talk to one another. And the one lady I was talking to one time started in on this weird story about how she liked to eat watermelon in the nude, and would let all the fruit and juices drip down onto her nude body. Very odd conversation to be having with someone in a church. Plus, for Christians, the people didn't seem to have any sense of propriety. They believed in doing drugs while having free sex, and even the associate pastor was known to engage in picking up strangers in alleys and having sex in cars. So suffice it to say, it REALLY turned me off to MCC. I've never been to a Unitarian Church, and the only time I was at a CoC, it really didn't show any indication that gays were freely embraced there.

Yes, you're right - the majority of churches would not tolerate an openly gay man, and they do not view homosexuality as something that is acceptable to God. It just seems to be individual congregations that depart from what their official church teachings say about it. Which, if you ask me, just goes to show there is no cohesiveness within so many denominations. Everyone seems to make up their own beliefs about something. What's the point in being a Methodist Church that accepts homosexuality, for example, if the official teaching of the Methodist Church is opposed to homosexuality? Again, that's a different story for a different time.

[Pathwalker]

You guys should know that I'm starting on Page 1 and responding to each poster as I move down the line. I haven't read through the entire thread first. So if I cover something that has already been answered, bear with me.

[Pathwalker]

Originally Posted by brittZ

Can you clarify this for me. It seems like you are saying that you don't believe people are either born gay or choose to be gay. Are you suggesting a third unknown alternative, or a combination of both genetics and choice?

I'll try to clarify. Yes, I think there is an alternative. The truth is, NO ONE really knows what causes someone to be homosexual. It COULD be a choice for some people, though I think that would actually make them perverts. Or it COULD be genetic, in which they are born that way. But that hasn't been proven yet. And it COULD actually be neither. It may not necessarily be a choice, but that doesn't mean someone is born gay, either. It could simply be something that is environmentally influenced.

Short bio of my life: I was having sex with other neighborhood boys when I was 11 years old. ELEVEN YEARS OLD! However, I didn't consider myself gay. I was STILL very much attracted to girls. I had girlfriends throughout elementary school and junior high. HOWEVER, at the same time, I was still "doing it" with other boys in the neighborhood. BUT.....I also gradually started noticing something about myself, and that was the fact that I was becoming unusually drawn to other guys in more than just a sexual way. As puberty hit, I was finding them attractive in the same ways I was thinking girls were attractive. I thought there were some guys who had really cool personalities and I started noticing good looking guys more, finding myself strangely wanting to be with them in a way I couldn't explain.

At the time, I was confused by this and didn't think I was gay. But I would find myself cutting out pictures of guys and posting them on the wall above my desk at home, much like girls would do. I would start thinking more about particular guys in school, and would want to be close to them, sharing deep thoughts with them, and wanting to be affectionate in ways that most other guys would find to be sissyish, or a turn-off. Then one day when I was 15, as I was walking through a local grocery store, I noticed the cover of a GQ magazine. It was the February 1981 edition (I guess that gives away my age), and on the cover was the most drop-dead gorgeous guy I'd ever seen in my life. Immediately, I was drawn to him like I'd never been drawn to any other guy in my life. I didn't have any sexual thoughts about him. I just wanted to be near him. I wanted to get to know him - who he was. That was the defining point in my life that I always reference as the moment when I knew I was gay. It wasn't something I chose. I never chose to have romantic feelings toward other guys. They just developed. The sex I had been having with neighborhood boys was always just a carnal, perverted thing with me. It was something we "did" to get our jollies. But I'd always maintained an interest in girls.

And the thing is, even after I was 15, I still had an interest in girls. I had several more girlfriends after that, but oddly enough I never did anything sexual with any of them, and I rarely if ever "made out" with them. It was more of a social companion thing with me. I eventually found myself more and more drawn to men, and less so to women. When I was in church, at the age of 19, I DID have a girlfriend while I was repressing my homosexual feelings - and even went so far as to get engaged to her. But people at church started questioning whether it was wise, and even the pastor's wife encouraged her to talk to me about whether I would be able to have sex after we got married. We had planned on getting married in August 1985, but we ended up breaking up because she decided she wanted to wait longer. That upset me, and made me question her decision and whether she trusted me to refrain from being involved with other men. In 1986, I dated a girl for the entire Summer and into Fall, and I actually think I was in love with her. BUT....I broke up with her because I wanted to date another man.

Aside from a strange relationship with a woman over the past 20 years - a woman I met in a gay bar on my 21st birthday, and she KNEW I was gay - I haven't been with any other women. And I've never had sex with a woman AT ALL.

So yes, I think there is an "alternative", as you say. I think it can simply develop in people, through a combination of environmental influences and personality traits. It is NOT something that is chosen....at least not the romantic feelings and inner attractions.

Originally Posted by brittZ

Also, I am confused when you say that people are born with a personality that lends itself to being gay. This confuses me because you said that being gay is not a choice. In my experience having a personality that lends itself to certain things like say: additcive tendencies, messiness, cleanliness, violence, pacifism, etc. . . still require a choice on the part of the person. Either they choose to not accentuate those aspects of their personality or they choose to accentuate them. Sometimes they make the choice by not actually making a choice and taking that attitude of "it is what I am so why fight it." Can you help me understand what you mean when you say that you think it is a personality issue that contributes to being gay but that it isn't a choice?

Well, in addition to what I wrote above, I'll just add that there seems to be a lot of confusion about exactly WHAT homosexuality really is. And gay people can say until they're blue in the face what it actually is, but people don't seem to "hear" us. It is NOT about having sex with someone. It is about the inner attractions to someone, and who you are drawn to. It is much like what being heterosexual is like when a woman sees a man, and her heart goes "pitter patter". When a woman falls in love with a man, what is it that is in her heart, soul, and mind that makes her fall in love with him? Is it simply her desire to have sex with him? No. That's not what makes people fall in love with others. It boggles my mind that I should have to explain something like this to people. I don't mean that offensively, but I really can't understand why people just don't "get it".

I'm not going to compare homosexuality to "messiness, cleanliness or pacifism". As for having a personality which contributes to addictions, or one being violent, I'll just say that the resulting action of those traits is harmful in some way to either the person committing those acts, or to others. It's HARDLY the same thing as having an attraction to another person, and wanting to be in a loving relationship with them. What I meant by having a personality that contributes to it is that there are certain types of temperaments that are more likely to be sensitive to environmental influences. For example, I was very shy when I was growing up, and very sensitive. My dad was generally not around at a time when I needed him to be the "male" influence in my life, so I really didn't know how to become a man. Not to mention, I really didn't "connect" with my dad anyway. We didn't generally get along much. There wasn't a close bond between us. My mom was somewhat protective and more present in the family as far as making certain decisions about things, and because I had a stronger interest in things that were typical for a girl, my lack of "masculine" interests wasn't really an issue. My artistic, creative side was fostered more, and there was no real push there for me to think about what it meant to be a "man". There were other "feminine" traits to my personality that I haven't mentioned, and so I guess what I'm saying is that my personality was more along the lines of what you would find in a girl. However, that alone wouldn't necessarily be an indication of some genetic cause of homosexuality, because there are other men with such personalities who are indeed straight.

To "make a choice by not making a choice" doesn't wash. Flip the argument around, and it doesn't work. I TRIED repressing who I was, and it didn't change anything about me. I TRIED making a choice to go straight, but it didn't work.

And besides, let's carry that argument to a different level. Did you CHOOSE to be straight? No. Did you try NOT to be straight? Probably not. Do you think you COULD try not to be straight?

[PhillyChief]

Gay or straight, I would hope that you find peace with who you are and not have a religion make you feel bad for being one way or another.