Jesus rose from the dead... (Isaiah, Egyptian, myths, prophecy)

[Dogknox]

rifleman I read your post.. STILL you do not produce proof of no God!

Your words..

Surely you are not going to tell me straight up that literally everything claimed as a miracle by God is an absolutely, positively accurate statement

I give you Miracles as "A proof" then you say they can be explained! Well go on and explain!!
rifleman The word "EVERYTHING" is a big word for such a little guy!!
I do not ask for an "Everything Explanation" from you.. Just for the miracles from Lourdes France!!

So far all I hear from you is >NOTHING< just words of what you want to believe; that is >>NOTHING<<!
rifleman You believe NOTHING and have NOTHING as to why!!

Prove to me, the thousands and thousands of Crutches, Cains and Wheel chairs are a hokes!
Prove it as; being a conspiracy, involving thousands and thousands of people, taking OVER 150 years to implement! JUST..
Just to fool little old you..

rifleman Tell the 5 million people who go every year, they are wasting their time their cures are not real!!

I am NOT saying 5 million are cured each year.. I am happy with just the 63 PROVEN cures.. With un-explainable results!! Never mind the mountain of crutches..
rifleman you claim, "there is NO God" maybe the thousands of Crutches, Cains and Wheel Chairs are not real??!

I think the debate started long ago.. still no reply, of any sense coming from you!!

Dogknox

[TRANSPONDER]

Logically, it is for YOU to prove the validity of God- belief, not for us to disprove it. After all. The sheer lack of any sound evidence for ancient martian colonies is all that is needed Not to believe in them, but the negative evidence is there the Bible is unreliable, the Gospels highly flawed. miracle claims are no better. The claims of miracle cures have turned out to be very doubtful when investigated.

While it is possible to point to the handful of cases that look unexplainable (rather like the corpus of UFO sightings) that only makes them 'Unexplained' and even if there are miracle cures, what the phenomenon actually is is not known.

I don't suppose this will make any impression on you, but I'm taking a bit of time to explain why the evidence really isn't good enough and appeals to us to take your word for it count for no more than Boxcar's spoof divinity claim (he is actually agnostic about it ).

[Dogknox]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

Logically, it is for YOU to prove the validity of God- belief, not for us to disprove it. After all. The sheer lack of any sound evidence for ancient martian colonies is all that is needed Not to believe in them, but the negative evidence is there the Bible is unreliable, the Gospels highly flawed. miracle claims are no better. The claims of miracle cures have turned out to be very doubtful when investigated.

While it is possible to point to the handful of cases that look unexplainable (rather like the corpus of UFO sightings) that only makes them 'Unexplained' and even if there are miracle cures, what the phenomenon actually is is not known.

I don't suppose this will make any impression on you, but I'm taking a bit of time to explain why the evidence really isn't good enough and appeals to us to take your word for it count for no more than Boxcar's spoof divinity claim (he is actually agnostic about it ).

AREQUIPA HOLD ON.... You claim "There is NO God"!!!!
You CLAIMED "there is NO God" long before I arrived here...
Your CLAIM >SHOULD< be based on your BELIEFS!!!

YOU HAVE BELIEFS!!! And you cannot defend >>YOUR<< beliefs!!??
What is wrong with this picture???

LOGIC says... "YOUR Beliefs are based on your WISHING you are right"! Tis all!!
It is YOUR WISH there is NO God, because you CANNOT claim your belief to be true!

I believe there is a God.
AREQUIPA For one... My belief is based on the history of man.
EVERY single age of man, from the caveman up to today; "ALL MEN" have believed in a higher being of some sort!!!

The history of man alone PROVES MAN HAS ALWAYS believed in God/gods!
The North American Indian (for example) had "The Great White Spirit"!
Billions and Billions of people believed in a God/gods! Then there is you...
You are .001% of men that reject the idea of a god!
Sort of put it into perspective, does it not??!

You are IN the minority and can't say why!!! LOGIC and the masses of people stand against you and your WISH!!!!!

I prove there is a God!
You prove there is NOT!

Dogknox

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by Dogknox

** First You have NOT proven there is NO God!!

Yes I have. I have done so in the same way that you are alleging that there is a good....simply claiming that there is, simply saying that I'm right and you are wrong! That's all you are doing!

** It means it is true... I believe truth not lies!

No it does not mean that it is true simply because YOU believe it! You have a lot of growing up to do kid.

** I have FAITH the sun will rise tomorrow morning!!
Rafius The sun rises in the morning >>IS A FACT<<!!!

No, you don't have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. The rising of the Sun in the morning is based on objective, verifiable evidence. FAITH is the belief that something is true or that something will happen when there is no evidence to support that belief. Are you honestly trying to convince me that the rising of the Sun in the mornings has no objective, verifiable evidence to support it - and it therefore requires FAITH to believe that it will rise????

I have FAITH in God!!!

You may well do child but that does not make it 'truth'. That is why you need 'faith' to believe that your god exists....because there is no objective, verifiable evidence that your god does exist.

God is the TRUTH!!!

So you believe.

You have faith in a WISH!! WISHING is not faith!! Faith is KNOWING a true!

Foolish child! You have it completely arse-backwards.
Wishing is having faith that something is true or that something will happen. I repeat again...if we KNOW that something is true (there is objective, verifiable evidence to support it) then there is no need for 'faith'. 'Faith' is obsolete in the face of truth.

I have faith the sun is hot..

No kid, you don't have faith in that because it is proven that the Sun is hot, therefore no 'faith' is required. That the Sun is hot is supported by OBJECTIVE, VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE - NO FAITH REQUIRED. Got it??

Listen carefully....
FAITH = the belief that something is true even though there is no evidence to support that.

If something is true i.e......
The Sun rises in the morning.
The Sun is hot.
Fire will burn you if it comes into contact with your skin.
Hitting yourself on the head with a hammer will cause pain and bruising.
Dogknob is trolling.

...then NO FAITH IS REQUIRED because such things can be proven.

Now get off and do you paper round will you!

[rifleman]

BTW, Dog, I was baptized when ≈ 2 yrs of age, I've since formally renounced it however, so... hmmm.... WassZhatMean? Sure and certain Hell?

Anyhow: here's the important Philosophical question of the day to Dogknox:

As a long-time (as of now, ≈ 45 yrs of non-stop thinking, questioning and debating.!!!) career biologist, geologist and engineer, not to mention bon vivant philosopher and travelled man of the world, I have assembled some well-supported and evolved, improved and oft-tested beliefs in my life that arose, clear and unfettered, from my deeply introspective analysis.

In addition, this set of extensively tested (i.e.: they are not just some vague unsupported and etherial mumbo-jumbo...) beliefs and counterchecks have now been extensively utilized in those ever-rising hypothetical and theoretical situations to check, predict, validate, etc., those existences and occurrences around me.

As well, I have compared my objectively analysed findings against those with, let's say politely, "a less solid footing", such as the unquestioning chantings and biblical "cut & pastes" of (i) my youth pastor, (ii) his superior who essentially chased me out of the church for being "impertinent to God by even asking those questions, young man! How... how... rude of you!", (iii) the minister who married me in my first (Christian based, and thus, IMHO,automatically short-lived...) marriage, (iv) several later add-on men of the cloth, and (v) the ardent posters here.

Five "types" or individuals with essentially the identical short-shrift response (which strongly reminds me of my old youth pastor, the one who was, essentially and primarily responsible for my righteous flight from a mythical fairy-tale God. Thanks, guys!), incl. C&P parroted biblical scripture posts, with no follow-on compelling and multi-dimensional philosophical discussions. "No way, man!"

You know, Dog, the sort of discussion I and most all of my scientist/engineer cohort can simply pull off the tops of our well-thought out heads on topics of great interest to us. We do not just accept the thinkings and writings of others. I wish you guys had that same skeptical perspective, but... .. oh well, huh?

And so... with those consistent experiences of a "non-response" from Christians over all these years can you understand why I'm now a tad bit skeptical of y'all?

Interestingly (to me at least, and I REALLY WANT YOUR PERSONAL FEEDBACK on my claims here Dogknox...)

Christian defenders, acolytes and adherents rarely defend their ideas beyond a rush to their bible, and the subsequent poorly thought out posting of quotes that they then claim "prove" all their cases.

Interestingly, I've heard the same biblical scripture used to validate several opposing ideas over the years, which in and of itself either means they don't know the background philosophies behind that passage, or the bible is sufficiently vague that it cannot therefore be reasonably used to "prove" ANY specific fact!

Anyhow, I, as a specialist in some technical areas of biology, genetics, geology, engineering and Evolution, can rather easily discuss, off the top of my experienced mind, any of the topics I beleive in and have spent a lot of time investigating for credibility and logic.

I'm also quick to admit areas I don't know anything about (eg: leading-edge wing shape and it's aerodynamic consequences @ velocity Mach numbers of 1.67+, in low-temp high-altitude air conditions).

Or, for that matter, the strengths of most biblical passages. I have NOT read the bible. However, when some acolyte for Jesus does cut & paste about how Job's discussion with God absolutely and inarguably proves the co-existence of dinosaurs, I then get out my particularly historically accurate, leather bound and gold gilt-lettered KJV bible I acquired from my now-departed agnostic dad, and I check it all out in hopes of attaining some vast new level of understanding.

This has, to date over 35 - 30 yrs and counting, never vastly increased my understanding of the point in question, other than to have some Christian poster yowl: "There! See! It's right there, and so that sctiptiure proves such and so!" doesn't matter if it says dogs can fly when suitably blessed by Jesus. Logic is the only thing that flies away, IMHO.

Instead I often see the contradictions or hugely ambiguous thinking. This has never been terribly convincing nor compelling, frankly!

But.... what if..... you asked me a simple enough question, and I just line-quoted some off-kilter or sorta unrelated factoid I just picked out of the index of my 1982 biology text, totally without any further open and friendly discussion?

Aka: A sort of "Here! Read it and weep. This proves I'm right, of course!" , and I then sit back with a smug look of superiority on my mug?

In other words, I'm asking why Christian posters here do not ever seem seem to have a good-enough knowledge base in their mental back pockets from which to openly and rapidly respond, and from several different perspectives perhaps (btw, this multi-dimensional response ability is the true mark of someone who has indeed thoughtfully examined a concept in detail, to go at it objectively, to try to disprove even their own ideas, and to thus have most of the right answers.)

Nope. What I see, proven many times over, is a quick retreat by desperate (there seems to be no other fitting word than desperate...) back into that biblical phrase-posting behavior, thinking that the phrase they have been told to rote-a-quote by AiG, etc., will just blow us thinker types away! Funny, don't you think?

So... honestly now, and in good humor, have you got any good responses here? (I do in fact always appreciate humor, so if you happen to just post a short one-liner biblical scripture post here, with the right emoticon, I'll at least start out today with a good laugh!)

Go for it! You should also understand that sort of trained quasi-response (see above for instance... ) is not atypical of most of the fundy respondents, and you might therefore also be able to visualize the source of many of us atheists' frustrations!

Have a great but thoughful and reverent Memorial Day!

[

QUOTE=Boxcar Overkill;24448926]What if the scripture is wrong?

Originally Posted by Dogknox

Boxcar Overkill GOOD question....

I'll get to these later. Done enough damage in the above LOOONNNGGGG post! good points & not so good counterpoints because, well see for yourself, Dk!

Nah. Bible is right? OK then! Since I've been assured and re-assured it's all preordained & pre-designed (), as several scriptural re-posters have diligently pointed out and "proven" with appropo cut & pastes.

So my Debilish™ behavior and beliefs are all pre-known and established by your God ("But, your honor, he made me do it!"), and He'll take me aside at the Gates, out of that endless stream of quietly bleating sheeple and say....

[I"Mighty good job, rifleman! WE always need a good skeptic in the flock*!"[/i]

_______________________________________

* Implies a flock of sheeple however. Who wants THAT on their headstone? "He was a good, unquestioning and obedient "Bleeter" for God!"

(cue: the heavenly angelical theme music...)

[rifleman]

BTEW, I was baptized when ≈ 2 yrs of age, I've since formally renounced it however, so... hmmm.... WassZhatMean? Sure and certain Hell?

Anyhow: here's the important Philosophical question of the day to Dogknox:

As a long-time (as of now, ≈ 45 yrs of non-stop thinking, questioning and debating.!!!) career biologist, geologist and engineer, not to mention bon vivant philosopher and travelled man of the world, I have assembled some well-supported and evolved, improved and oft-tested beliefs in my life that arose, clear and unfettered, from my deeply introspective analysis.

In addition, this set of extensively tested (i.e.: they are not just some vague unsupported and etherial mumbo-jumbo...) beliefs and counterchecks have now been extensively utilized in those ever-rising hypothetical and theoretical situations to check, predict, validate, etc., those existences and occurrences around me.

As well, I have compared my objectively analysed findings against those with, let's say politely, "a less solid footing", such as the unquestioning chantings and biblical "cut & pastes" of (i) my youth pastor, (ii) his superior who essentially chased me out of the church for being "impertinent to God by even asking those questions, young man! How... how... rude of you!", (iii) the minister who married me in my first (Christian based, and thus, IMHO,automatically short-lived...) marriage, (iv) several later add-on men of the cloth, and (v) the ardent posters here.

Five "types" or individuals with essentially the identical short-shrift response (which strongly reminds me of my old youth pastor, the one who was, essentially and primarily responsible for my righteous flight from a mythical fairy-tale God. Thanks, youth pastor!), incl. C&P parroted biblical scripture posts, with no follow-on compelling and multi-dimensional philosophical discussions. "No way, man!"

You know, Dog, the sort of discussion I and most all of my scientist/engineer cohort buddies can simply pull off the tops of our well-thought out heads on topics of great interest to us. We do not just accept the thinkings and writings of others. I wish you guys had that same skeptical perspective, but... .. oh well, huh?

And so... with those consistent experiences of a "non-response" from Christians over all these years can you understand why I'm now a tad bit skeptical of y'all?

Interestingly (to me at least, and I REALLY WANT YOUR PERSONAL FEEDBACK on my claims here Dogknox...)

Christian defenders, acolytes and adherents rarely defend their ideas beyond a rush to their bible, and the subsequent poorly thought out posting of quotes that they then claim "prove" all their cases.

Interestingly, I've heard the same biblical scripture used to validate several opposing ideas over the years, which in and of itself either means they don't know the background philosophies behind that passage, or the bible is sufficiently vague that it cannot therefore be reasonably used to "prove" ANY specific fact!

Anyhow, I, as a specialist in some technical areas of biology, genetics, geology, engineering and Evolution, can rather easily discuss, off the top of my experienced mind, any of the topics I beleive in and have spent a lot of time investigating for credibility and logic.

I'm also quick to admit areas I don't know anything about (eg: leading-edge wing shape and it's aerodynamic consequences @ velocity Mach numbers of 1.67+, in low-temp high-altitude air conditions).

Or, for that matter, the strengths of most biblical passages. I have NOT read the bible. However, when some acolyte for Jesus does cut & paste about how Job's discussion with God absolutely and inarguably proves the co-existence of dinosaurs, I then get out my particularly historically accurate, leather bound and gold gilt-lettered KJV bible I acquired from my now-departed agnostic dad, and I check it all out in hopes of attaining some vast new level of understanding.

This has, to date over 35 - 30 yrs and counting, never vastly increased my understanding of any particular point(s) in question, other than to have some Christian poster yowl: "There! See! It's right there, and so that scripture proves such and so!". It doesn't matter if it says dogs can fly when suitably blessed by Jesus. Logic is the only thing that flies away, IMHO.

Instead I often see the contradictions or hugely ambiguous thinking. This has never been terribly convincing nor compelling, frankly! And, to boot, Christian acolytes do NOT like it when I point out, even politely, the failings in their "argument"! THey then go into insulting and combative ad hominems as their last ditch defense strategy! THat's OK: if it's all they gotz, then it's all they gotz!! I just wish they'd glimpse it for what it so obviously is! Even if only for a brief instance ever once in a while!

___________________________

But.... what if..... you asked me a simple enough question, and I just line-quoted some off-kilter or sorta semi-related factoid I just picked out of the contents index of my circa 1982 biology text, totally without any further open and friendly discussion?

Aka: A sort of "Here! Read it and weep. This proves I'm right, of course!"...


…and I then just sit back with a smug look of superiority on my mug?

In other words, I'm asking why Christian posters here do not ever seem seem to have a good-enough knowledge base in their mental back pockets from which to openly and rapidly respond, and from several different perspectives perhaps (btw, this multi-dimensional response ability is the true mark of someone who has indeed thoughtfully examined a concept in detail, to go at it objectively, to try to disprove even their own ideas, and to thus have most of the right answers.)

Nope. What I see, proven many times over, is a quick retreat by desperate (there seems to be no other fitting word than desperate...) back into that biblical phrase-posting behavior, thinking that the phrase they have been told to rote-a-quote by AiG, etc., will just blow us thinker types away! Funny, don't you think?

So... honestly now, and in good humor, have you got any good responses here? (I do in fact always appreciate humor, so if you happen to just post a short one-liner biblical scripture post here, with the right emoticon, I'll at least start out today with a good laugh!)

Go for it! You should also understand that sort of trained quasi-response (see above for instance... ) is not atypical of most of the fundy respondents, and you might therefore also be able to visualize the source of many of us atheists' frustrations!

Have a great but thoughful and reverent Memorial Day!

[

QUOTE=Boxcar Overkill;24448926]What if the scripture is wrong?

Originally Posted by Dogknox

Boxcar Overkill GOOD question....

I'll get to these later. Done enough damage in the above LOOONNNGGGG post! good points & not so good counterpoints because, well see for yourself, Dk!

Nah. Bible is right? OK then! Since I've been assured and re-assured it's all preordained & pre-designed (), as several scriptural re-posters have diligently pointed out and "proven" with appropo cut & pastes.

So my Debilish™ behavior and beliefs are all pre-known and established by your God ("But, your honor, he made me do it!"), and He'll take me aside at the Gates, out of that endless stream of quietly bleating sheeple and say....

[I"Mighty good job, rifleman! WE always need a good skeptic in the flock*!"[/i]

_______________________________________

* Implies a flock of sheeple however. Who wants THAT on their headstone? "He was a good, unquestioning and obedient "Bleeter" for God!"

(cue: the heavenly angelical theme music...)

(BTW, I'm off to my gunsmithing work [got a big big backlog for my honest and diligent work!], then to our local memorial this afternoon. Let's all never forget those who died for our freedoms, including to have such discussions as these without too much suppression, such as we'd have experienced a few centuries ago by the church.

I do slyly note that God is always claimed to be on every combatant's side: The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Roosevelt, the USSR, America, Israel, the modern-day Palestinians and so on. Interesting, huh?

Hmmm... Maybe He just wants us all to just mutually kill ourselves in one true Big Bang finalé?

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by Dogknox

AREQUIPA HOLD ON.... You claim "There is NO God"!!!!
You CLAIMED "there is NO God" long before I arrived here...
Your CLAIM >SHOULD< be based on your BELIEFS!!!

YOU HAVE BELIEFS!!! And you cannot defend >>YOUR<< beliefs!!??
What is wrong with this picture???

LOGIC says... "YOUR Beliefs are based on your WISHING you are right"! Tis all!!
It is YOUR WISH there is NO God, because you CANNOT claim your belief to be true!

I believe there is a God.
AREQUIPA For one... My belief is based on the history of man.
EVERY single age of man, from the caveman up to today; "ALL MEN" have believed in a higher being of some sort!!!

The history of man alone PROVES MAN HAS ALWAYS believed in God/gods!
The North American Indian (for example) had "The Great White Spirit"!
Billions and Billions of people believed in a God/gods! Then there is you...
You are .001% of men that reject the idea of a god!
Sort of put it into perspective, does it not??!

You are IN the minority and can't say why!!! LOGIC and the masses of people stand against you and your WISH!!!!!

I prove there is a God!
You prove there is NOT!

Dogknox

No, and No. I do not claim there is no God. That would be saying more than I know, just as you couldn't claim to know there IS one.

Neither of us know.

So neither of us should believe in what we don't know.

I don't believe in a God. If you do - YOU explain why. I don't need to.

See it now?

Mind, I do say that the God of the Bible doesn't exist. By that I mean that I am pretty darn sure. I can explain why - it's because the Bible is untrustworthy and the god described makes no sense. Theist attempts to justify Biblegod with 'God can do what He likes' or 'Who can understand what he does' do not convince me in the least.

I mock your argument from ancient human superstition and your ad hominem that I want to 'wish' God away. Is that the best evidence you have? Don't make me hurt myself laughing.

That's why I say that I positively disbelieve in that one and say it doesn't exist.

About the existence of some kind of creative Cosmic mind...who knows? Neither of us two.

[Dogknox]

Rafius from your post 84..
I reply: I have FAITH I will get out of bed in the morning!
Faith is KNOWING, what to expect!
It is a WISH there is NO God... Because up to now you have not provided any of your proofs, there is NO God.
I got out of bed yesterday so I can say I have FAITH, I will get up tomorrow!

I have Faith if I toss the ball up, it will come down!
IT is FAITH until I toss it up!!!
It is Faith until it starts coming down!
I would NOT toss the ball if I did not have faith it will come down!

I have Faith I will get up tomorrow because I got up today!
It is Faith and remains faith until tomorrow.. Because I might NOT wake up!!

If I did not have faith I will rise tomorrow; I might not go to bed tonight!!

I have Faith there is a God.
My faith is based on what I KNOW!!
I KNOW miracles are from God!
You MUST reject the miracles.. But can't explain why!!!

I KNOW prophesy in scripture has come true!
I know the odds of even one prophesy to come true is great never mind the hundreds of proven prophesy coming true!
You MUST reject the scriptures but can't explain why!!

Archaeologists use the scriptures to do their study and digs.. They KNOW they are true! They have FAITH in the scriptures!!!
You must reject the scriptures and the Archaeologists digs as a lie!
Because you reject the scriptures!!!

Rafius LOGIC alone tells you you are wrong, you must reject LOGIC!!
LOGIC says.. It would be easier for a room full of monkeys to type out the constitution of the USA then for Man to be formed from dust!

Logic says.. It would be easier for a room full of monkeys to type out the constitution of the USA then for the Earth be exactly the distance from the sun the earth is! The Exact temperature, air, rotation, size of moon, water, place in the Galaxy, size of sun.. etc etc to have life on planet Earth!
You must reject all of this but can't explain why!!
Faith tells me it was my God who loves man, scriptures tell ME God did it!!! Scientists use the scriptures you reject!

You do not have faith there is NO God..because you can't know!
All you have is a DREAM or a wish!!!

Dogknox

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by Dogknox

Rafius from your post 84..
I reply: I have FAITH I will get out of bed in the morning!
Faith is KNOWING, what to expect!

Oh for goodness sake!
Haven't you got some homework to do? You're way out of your depth here kid.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by Rafius

Oh for goodness sake!
Haven't you got some homework to do? You're way out of your depth here kid.

I'm..ah beginning to wonder. I thought there could be few theists who haven't at least heard that Faith that your car will start is based on practical knowledge (as well as being aware that sometimes it won't start), but Faith in unproven entities is based on nothing sound.

In fact though the word 'Faith' sounds like 'faith'. They are no more alike than whether (a choice) and wether (to be a sheep)