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Let's talk after that happens. Until then, let's have some proof of your god.
Philly, I've been thinking about this very hard the past few months. I feel like my faith has propelled higher than it ever has before. How? Because I questioned God existance.
I will add some reasons why I think it's highly plausible to believe that God does exist. I am not going to believe in a God based blindly on faith. I think we have very excellent reasons to believe that a God does exist:
1.) God makes sense in the origin of the universe
A famouse mathematician once said, "The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought. The role that remains for the infinite to play is solely that of an idea."
The Big Bang shows that the universe started from nothing. I don't want to get into details because it is out of my own technical scope, but the origin of the universe is a VERY BIG REASON why I believe that a God exists. I mean, what's more plausible for the thinking mind? That the world was forever eternal or that it had a beginning? Out of nothing, nothing comes! Why does the universe exist instead of just nothing? There must have been a cause which brought the universe into being.
2.) God makes sense of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life
During the last 40 years or so, scientists have discovered that the existence of intelligent life depends upon a complex and delicate balance of initial conditions given in the Big Bang itself. We now know that our existence is balanced on a knife's edge--the calculation needs to be PERFECT for life to sustain. Without getting into technical details and citing sources, the consensus is this: The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design. I believe it is not due to physical necessity or chance. Therefore, it is due to design.
3.) God makes sense of objective moral values in the world.
If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist.
"If . . . there are . . . objective values, they make the existence of a God more probable than it would have been without them. Thus, we have a defensible argument from morality to the existence of a God."
-- J.L. Mackie, Oxford University (he is a prominent aetheist).
If God does not exist, objective moral values does not exist. Objective moral values DO exist, therefore, I believe God does exist.
4.) God makes sense of the historical facts concerning the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
Most people would probably think that the resurrection of Jesus is something you just accept on faith or not.There are three established facts concerning the fate of Jesus of Nazareth: the discovery of his empty tomb, his post-mortem appearances, and the origin of his disciples' belief in his resurrection.
The hypothesis "God raised Jesus from the dead" is the best explanation of these facts.The hypothesis "God raised Jesus from the dead" entails that the God revealed by Jesus of Nazareth exists.Therefore, the God revealed by Jesus of Nazareth exists.God can be immediately known and experienced.
Now if this is right, then there's a danger that arguments for the existence of God could actually distract one's attention from God Himself. If you're sincerely seeking God, God will make His existence evident to you. I don't remember what verse, but the Bible says, "seek God and he will draw near to you".
He definitely has ever since I started looking deeper into questions I have been asking all of my life.
Wrong question. You have it backwards. The onus on the theists to explain why they believe in an unnecessary hypothesis (God).
See "Russell's Teapot" entry in Wikipedia.org for some help with your thinking.
Agreed. Let me add that anyone that uses The Bible to prove the existance of god is proving nothing. The bible is a book, written by men and it can say anything those men want it to say! In other words, nice stories, nice fictional stories.
I will add some reasons why I think it's highly plausible to believe that God does exist. I am not going to believe in a God based blindly on faith. I think we have very excellent reasons to believe that a God does exist:
1.) God makes sense in the origin of the universe
A famouse mathematician once said, "The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought. The role that remains for the infinite to play is solely that of an idea."
And so if God is infinite, how in the heck does this make any sense of what you are trying to say?
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Originally Posted by TexasNick
The Big Bang shows that the universe started from nothing. I don't want to get into details because it is out of my own technical scope, but the origin of the universe is a VERY BIG REASON why I believe that a God exists. I mean, what's more plausible for the thinking mind? That the world was forever eternal or that it had a beginning? Out of nothing, nothing comes! Why does the universe exist instead of just nothing? There must have been a cause which brought the universe into being.
I think a common misconception is that the Big Bang just started from nothing and the universe was all of a sudden there. I suggest you read a little bit on the "Theory of 'M' in the 11th dimension". If you're not interested it explains the string theory that perhaps caused multiple expansions of not just a "little ball of matter" but a "string" of matter, if you will, that rapidly expands. Think of a balloon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasNick
2.) God makes sense of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life
During the last 40 years or so, scientists have discovered that the existence of intelligent life depends upon a complex and delicate balance of initial conditions given in the Big Bang itself. We now know that our existence is balanced on a knife's edge--the calculation needs to be PERFECT for life to sustain. Without getting into technical details and citing sources, the consensus is this: The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design. I believe it is not due to physical necessity or chance. Therefore, it is due to design.
I guess there's nothing I can say that's going to make you feel differently. Where you see god, I see nature and science at work. The thing is, I have a lot more proof that evolution does the work of creation than that of a creator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasNick
3.) God makes sense of objective moral values in the world.
If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist.
"If . . . there are . . . objective values, they make the existence of a God more probable than it would have been without them. Thus, we have a defensible argument from morality to the existence of a God."
-- J.L. Mackie, Oxford University (he is a prominent aetheist).
If God does not exist, objective moral values does not exist. Objective moral values DO exist, therefore, I believe God does exist.
I really can't put it into writing any better than Richard Dawkin's does in his book "The God Delusion". I really suggest that you read it. My recommendation is to read it slowly, he has a vast vocabulary and I often had to go back a few pages because I felt myself reading without understanding. He has an excellent point of view on religious morals, but I am not only exhausted with this particular discussion (see just about every other post on this message board) but tired of explaining my views on it over and over again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasNick
4.) God makes sense of the historical facts concerning the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
Most people would probably think that the resurrection of Jesus is something you just accept on faith or not.There are three established facts concerning the fate of Jesus of Nazareth: the discovery of his empty tomb, his post-mortem appearances, and the origin of his disciples' belief in his resurrection.
The hypothesis "God raised Jesus from the dead" is the best explanation of these facts.The hypothesis "God raised Jesus from the dead" entails that the God revealed by Jesus of Nazareth exists.Therefore, the God revealed by Jesus of Nazareth exists.God can be immediately known and experienced.
Now if this is right, then there's a danger that arguments for the existence of God could actually distract one's attention from God Himself. If you're sincerely seeking God, God will make His existence evident to you. I don't remember what verse, but the Bible says, "seek God and he will draw near to you".
He definitely has ever since I started looking deeper into questions I have been asking all of my life.
Sorry, wish I could explain it better.
And, what proof do we have, other than the bible that Jesus was resurrected by god? How many history books, without using reference to the bible, explain that Jesus was resurrected from his tomb? Even other holy books, such as the Qu'ran that talk about Jesus, don't think he was resurrected from his tomb, they just believe he was a prophet. So, the only proof that there is for the existence of Jesus' resurrection are those words that are in the bible, and the bible sells itself as a true book. So here is the creationist logic I see, which is quite circular. Jesus rose from the dead because the Bible says he did. The Bible is correct because it says it is the word of God and correct. So, therefore because the Bible says it is the word of God and that it is correct, and also has the story of Jesus' resurrection in there, than the story of the resurrection must be true.
Sorry, I'm going to need a little more than a book that uses itself as proof to see the reality in this. Now, perhaps if EVERY book in history ever written about that particular time all claimed that Jesus rose from the dead, than it may be something to talk about.
The Big Bang shows that the universe started from nothing.
Incorrect. It shows that everything burst forth from a single point. It's possible that one day everything may collapse again and subsequently burst forth again. In fact, there's no telling how many times that may have occurred before the last time. Have you looked into black holes? Not literally, of course, but the theories about them and also how it's been shown how they form from suns dying and collapsing in on themselves?
Quote:
We now know that our existence is balanced on a knife's edge--the calculation needs to be PERFECT for life to sustain. Without getting into technical details and citing sources, the consensus is this: The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design. I believe it is not due to physical necessity or chance.
Once again, belief as proof.
Also once again, "fine tuning". Gee, if you start out with the idea that the universe is fine tuned, do you think you could possibly come up with any conclusion other than that there's a magic "tuner"?
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If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist.
This is more fantasy, and quoting others who buy into the fantasy and fail to present proof doesn't make it any less fantastical.
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God makes sense of the historical facts concerning the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
So one fantasy is dependent upon another, therefore that proves one fantasy is real and if that fantasy is real than the other fantasy must be real. Nice. Have you heard the term "circular logic" before?
To save space here, I'll direct your attention to this online pdf version of August Berkshire's 21 Unconvincing Arguments for God.
Agreed. Let me add that anyone that uses The Bible to prove the existance of god is proving nothing. The bible is a book, written by men and it can say anything those men want it to say! In other words, nice stories, nice fictional stories.
Okay checked out the wikipedia entry, but I ask:
1. How did the teapot get there?
2. Does the teapot have any explanatory power?
3. Why do you believe in the teapot?
The theist can provide answers for all of these items. How does the "Teapotist" responds to these items?
Would it help if someone writes a teapot book declaring the divinity of the teapot and it's powers?
Well, I happen to know that the teapot did not need a creator. It has always been there through some sort of infinitismal magic. It continues to pour tea as well, also through some sort of magic. You cannot grasp the concept of the teapot, it's just beyond our grasp. But, you'll see, just as with the bogeyman, one day you'll find out this teapot is real. This I can assure you. Oh, and my mother has a wonderful coffee table book on teapots from around the world. It is quite descriptive of how our said teapot would look. This teapotism sure is an amazing thing.
If the teapot exists, we should have MORE evidence of his existance than, what we do, in fact, have. I think that is sheer speculation. I don't think that the absence of evidence is at all a positive argument against the existance of the great teapot.
Philly, I've been thinking about this very hard the past few months. I feel like my faith has propelled higher than it ever has before. How? Because I questioned God existance.
I will add some reasons why I think it's highly plausible to believe that God does exist. I am not going to believe in a God based blindly on faith. I think we have very excellent reasons to believe that a God does exist:
1.) God makes sense in the origin of the universe
A famouse mathematician once said, "The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought. The role that remains for the infinite to play is solely that of an idea."
The Big Bang shows that the universe started from nothing. I don't want to get into details because it is out of my own technical scope, but the origin of the universe is a VERY BIG REASON why I believe that a God exists. I mean, what's more plausible for the thinking mind? That the world was forever eternal or that it had a beginning? Out of nothing, nothing comes! Why does the universe exist instead of just nothing? There must have been a cause which brought the universe into being.
I'll repeat what has already been adressed; the Big Bang theory does not state that the universe started from nothing. However, let's examine your claims as if it did.
To use your words, the thinking mind is utterly incapable of comprehending nothingness (in the existential sense). Therefore, any discussion concerning nothingness is nonsensical.
From where did God come? If "eternal" is only an idea, as you state, then God is only an idea as well.
In my opinion, the thinking mind is not what we're after here. We're looking for the honest thinking mind. Such a mind admits that it doesn't know the answers to all questions. The best definition of education is not "the sum of one's knowledge," but "the knowledge of one's limitations."
Quote:
2.) God makes sense of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life
During the last 40 years or so, scientists have discovered that the existence of intelligent life depends upon a complex and delicate balance of initial conditions given in the Big Bang itself. We now know that our existence is balanced on a knife's edge--the calculation needs to be PERFECT for life to sustain. Without getting into technical details and citing sources, the consensus is this: The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design. I believe it is not due to physical necessity or chance. Therefore, it is due to design.
We can't even begin to discuss the universe. We know jack squat about the universe. Regarding the earth, you have it backwards. Life has fine tuned itself to its environment. Conditions do not need to be perfect. Life exists everwhere on this planet; from deep sea vents, to under the arctic tundra, to miles below the suface of the earth. Furthermore, life is only one of a plethora of natural phenomena. Choosing life as a benchmark for the existence of God is purely arbitrary. Life is no more meaningful as an indicator then any other phenomena - rare or otherwise.
Quote:
3.) God makes sense of objective moral values in the world.
If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist.
"If . . . there are . . . objective values, they make the existence of a God more probable than it would have been without them. Thus, we have a defensible argument from morality to the existence of a God."
-- J.L. Mackie, Oxford University (he is a prominent aetheist).
If God does not exist, objective moral values does not exist. Objective moral values DO exist, therefore, I believe God does exist.
Bold mine: Bingo! Objective morals do indeed not exist.
Quote:
4.) God makes sense of the historical facts concerning the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
Most people would probably think that the resurrection of Jesus is something you just accept on faith or not.There are three established facts concerning the fate of Jesus of Nazareth: the discovery of his empty tomb, his post-mortem appearances, and the origin of his disciples' belief in his resurrection.
The hypothesis "God raised Jesus from the dead" is the best explanation of these facts.The hypothesis "God raised Jesus from the dead" entails that the God revealed by Jesus of Nazareth exists.Therefore, the God revealed by Jesus of Nazareth exists.God can be immediately known and experienced.
Now if this is right, then there's a danger that arguments for the existence of God could actually distract one's attention from God Himself. If you're sincerely seeking God, God will make His existence evident to you. I don't remember what verse, but the Bible says, "seek God and he will draw near to you".
He definitely has ever since I started looking deeper into questions I have been asking all of my life.
Sorry, wish I could explain it better.
The Bible is perhaps the most contradictory, nonsensical book ever written. Citing the Bible as evidence in a discussion of logic is laughable.
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