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To those who subscribe to the argument that god must exist, because otherwise, where did the universe come from?
1. Is this not an argument for a very broad form of deism, not your specific religion? If you are a Christian and adhere to the watchmaker analogy, how do you know that there is only one male watchmaker who created Adam and created Eve from Eve's chest, and sent his son to die for us? Where in the watchmaker argument do you make the leap from "there exists a creator" to "the Christian religion is verified!" How do you know the watchmaker is not Allah, Shiva, Zeus, Thor or green aliens from an alternate dimension where invisible pink unicorns fight valiantly against evil banks?
2. How does this conform with the law of parsimony? Introducing unnecessary variables is...wait for it...unnecessary. The entire reason why God is a necessary variable, you argue, is that the universe is such a complex entity, and needs an explanation. But is God not literally an infinitely complex variable? What explanation is there for god? In order to explain a "hole" in Big Bang Cosmology, you introduce an infinitely greater hole, and then claim that the same logic used to explain the universe cannot be used for god.
3. Why is an omnipotent, all good being a logical solution for a very flawed and imperfect reality? You introduce a perfect creator, and then come up with a convoluted rationalization for why the universe is imperfect. Following Occam's Razor, would it not be a simpler and more logical solution to conclude that the creator(s) of the universe, if real, is/are very powerful but not perfect, partially good and partially evil (or simply ammoral), much like the universe itself?
4. Tying into all the points above, where does salvation fit into this? Or the afterlife? Even if the universe must be explained by intelligent design (which it does not), "salvation" and life after death seem like random additions for little children scared of the dark.
Last edited by Sci Fi Fan; 08-16-2012 at 08:50 AM..
I can only Say this about imperfection being in the creation we see or are born into...God said to Adam and Eve, after they disobeyed him and ate of the tree, bush, plant, fruit.. told not to...TOUCH..."Because of You it is like THIS" WILD, CHOATIC< IMPERFECT > OUT OF ORDER < IN OPPOSITION > AND HOLDING DEATH...which they (ADAM AND EVE ) Created....By doing that act of a somewhat innocent but deadly action In EDEN...So God Drove them into DEATH..(Vehicle unknow) and in that State or universe...on a Planetary plain (Simular but not Eden) God put them..and told them to right the wrongs...and do it sinlessly....So that is the task at hand....the Givens are Given...the game -plan - is to make Edens in Likeness....utilizing all the Givens God gave!....and correct the error...if we be God's then Edens are in the equation to make...to Give...to share...Like God did do....and still does....now we have been given laws of God, commandments of God..and precepts and covenants of God...To make us sinless enough...to restore the Plant that was violated by our Forefather and Mother...and as Jesus said "Give onto God what belongs to God"...if it was not given, and it is here...then By Justice ruling thumb...when found, it should be given back to the orginal owner of it...which is God...and put back in the center of the Garden...Like signs attract...and Eden #1 Joins Eden #2,,,ect ect ect and the kingdom Grows into the universe...naturally!....Changing signs...from a positive..to the negitive (done by Adam and Eve) must be righted (signs changed back) using simular actions but in reverse....Sin is the disobediance of God...do not touch...and Jesus says Give it back...see.?...all this you see before you...the Earth, the universe we are in...it is all for that reason, and that reason alone....there is no other reason...once it is put back the right way (taken in sin) (restored sinlessly) Death and chaos and corruption, oppression, slavery, imprisonment and false Judgment, lies and liars, minimions of $atan (murderers and sexually unglued)......they all end...when something perfect or very Good is brought to the table....in repentance..forgiveness is granted....and the lands become abundantly Giving...when the laws of the land include all the given God gave, and the one he did not which is restored onto him....EDENS become the multiple of EDEN under God...Not Money!...SO if one breaks the second commandment...it does not work correctly.....the engraven imaged thing is where some of the sin lies with......and is creating poverty, and destitution..which gives birth to crime and other evils....Who did Jesus stand with? (the sinners and evildoers)....and who did Jesus tell what makes them be what they are....Those holding the coins...God said something about in those commandments...not to make..or have made more important than he...God.....now I think it is getting out of hand, with all the wars, industrial madness, and pollution,toxic waste, and waters made bitter, and lack of respect of the creation that could be EDENS made into cities of smog and corruption in oh so many places....under that IDOL told not to make.........but that is just me being me....if they want Death so badly....I say let it come ....but if they want life...they should try to do what is necessary for that to be with them always....the Garden...without that...life would be very hard to aquire...even with all the money in the world..it would not feed them, nor would it buy a new world.....with life....so we are now on a precipise...which way do we Go from here?....most nations are going the economic root, and cutting off the heads of the enviromentalists who oppose certain economic endevours of polluters...(forest industry,Big Oil, automotive, nuclear, textile industries, and genetically modified foods...) WHile holding out of context and prohibiting certain plants...Now God said all the seed that are Good..in Genesis YEILD SEED....the ANTI OF GOD is SEEDLESS ...they are now making the opposing state of being....wonder why?
All one has to do is get the seeds of the plant Adam and Eve stole, and sinlessly put them back where they belong...!!
But I guess a screwed up planet of ever higher prices and cost to live..is what they want done with their free Gift.
Soon it will be so hard to afford to live in it...slavery will be invoked to fuel it....and all those lies about freedom and liberties, and free trade uttered in the winds....well that was just a delusion...eh Men?
So...as the world turns backwards or in opposing natures towards the ANTI CHRIST or ANTI GOD or ANTI EDEN state of being....I wonder how many will live comfortably in it?...saying things like there is no God, and every breath taken to say it, is accompanied by a cough and choke conditioning with a knee jurk reaction to the meds needed to stay alive ...to say it.
Oh please: Sir Les: a point of general authorship. Pleeezzzz separate your writings into a few paragraphs! It's virtually unreadable as you posted it here! Even if you do it as a late edit after you've composed it!
Like-a This if you please (just an example...):
I can only Say this about imperfection being in the creation we see or are born into...God said to Adam and Eve, after they disobeyed him and ate of the tree, bush, plant, fruit.. told not to...TOUCH..."Because of You it is like THIS" WILD, CHOATIC< IMPERFECT > OUT OF ORDER < IN OPPOSITION > AND HOLDING DEATH...which they (ADAM AND EVE ) Created....
By doing that act of a somewhat innocent but deadly action In EDEN...So God Drove them into DEATH..(Vehicle unknow) and in that State or universe...on a Planetary plain (Simular but not Eden) God put them..and told them to right the wrongs...and do it sinlessly....So that is the task at hand....the Givens are Given...the game -plan - is to make Edens in Likeness....utilizing all the Givens God gave!....and correct the error...if we be God's then Edens are in the equation to make...to Give...to share...
Like God did do....and still does....now we have been given laws of God, commandments of God..and precepts and covenants of God...To make us sinless enough...to restore the Plant that was violated by our Forefather and Mother...and as Jesus said "Give onto God what belongs to God"...if it was not given, and it is here...then By Justice ruling thumb...when found, it should be given back to the orginal owner of it...which is God...and put back in the center of the Garden...
Like signs attract...and Eden #1 Joins Eden #2,,,ect ect ect and the kingdom Grows into the universe...naturally!....Changing signs...from a positive..to the negitive (done by Adam and Eve) must be righted (signs changed back) using simular actions but in reverse....Sin is the disobediance of God...do not touch...and Jesus says Give it back...see.?...all this you see before you...the Earth, the universe we are in...i
It is all for that reason, and that reason alone....there is no other reason...once it is put back the right way (taken in sin) (restored sinlessly) Death and chaos and corruption, oppression, slavery, imprisonment and false Judgment, lies and liars, minimions of $atan (murderers and sexually unglued)......they all end...when something perfect or very Good is brought to the table....in repentance..forgiveness is granted....
Your reasoning is still convoluted and very VERY hard to follow, but this would certainly make it so much easier. Or... leave it like it is and hope for the best?
To the OP you are way way off. Evolution is the watchmaker, and evolution is a Blind Watchmaker. What species evolves next may be adaptive from the predecessor, but 5, 10,15 organismas down the line, evolution does not know...yet...
Consider humans...we have evolved in succession from other species, and our bodies are STILL evoloving. but does nature, the blind watchmaker, know yet what the next species will be, will look like? no It does not. Which is why we refer to it as a blind evolution. It is why we as humans are flawed, we have flasw in our design, and the next species which evolves after Home sapiens will no doubt have some flaws too but will have some improvments over us.
To those who subscribe to the argument that god must exist, because otherwise, where did the universe come from?
1. Is this not an argument for a very broad form of deism, not your specific religion? If you are a Christian and adhere to the watchmaker analogy, how do you know that there is only one male watchmaker who created Adam and created Eve from Eve's chest, and sent his son to die for us? Where in the watchmaker argument do you make the leap from "there exists a creator" to "the Christian religion is verified!" How do you know the watchmaker is not Allah, Shiva, Zeus, Thor or green aliens from an alternate dimension where invisible pink unicorns fight valiantly against evil banks?
2. How does this conform with the law of parsimony? Introducing unnecessary variables is...wait for it...unnecessary. The entire reason why God is a necessary variable, you argue, is that the universe is such a complex entity, and needs an explanation. But is God not literally an infinitely complex variable? What explanation is there for god? In order to explain a "hole" in Big Bang Cosmology, you introduce an infinitely greater hole, and then claim that the same logic used to explain the universe cannot be used for god.
3. Why is an omnipotent, all good being a logical solution for a very flawed and imperfect reality? You introduce a perfect creator, and then come up with a convoluted rationalization for why the universe is imperfect. Following Occam's Razor, would it not be a simpler and more logical solution to conclude that the creator(s) of the universe, if real, is/are very powerful but not perfect, partially good and partially evil (or simply ammoral), much like the universe itself?
4. Tying into all the points above, where does salvation fit into this? Or the afterlife? Even if the universe must be explained by intelligent design (which it does not), "salvation" and life after death seem like random additions for little children scared of the dark.
Actually a very good and worthwhile post. It is also one that will take a lot of discussion as it not only involves the principle of parsimony but the question of a priori assumptions, burden of proof, biased sample, special pleading and of course, anecdote as evidence (which is the basis of the leap of faith - which otherwise has no basis other than Faith itself) and I don't think I'm up to it at the moment.
To those who subscribe to the argument that god must exist, because otherwise, where did the universe come from?
1. Is this not an argument for a very broad form of deism, not your specific religion? If you are a Christian and adhere to the watchmaker analogy, how do you know that there is only one male watchmaker who created Adam and created Eve from Eve's chest, and sent his son to die for us? Where in the watchmaker argument do you make the leap from "there exists a creator" to "the Christian religion is verified!" How do you know the watchmaker is not Allah, Shiva, Zeus, Thor or green aliens from an alternate dimension where invisible pink unicorns fight valiantly against evil banks?
2. How does this conform with the law of parsimony? Introducing unnecessary variables is...wait for it...unnecessary. The entire reason why God is a necessary variable, you argue, is that the universe is such a complex entity, and needs an explanation. But is God not literally an infinitely complex variable? What explanation is there for god? In order to explain a "hole" in Big Bang Cosmology, you introduce an infinitely greater hole, and then claim that the same logic used to explain the universe cannot be used for god.
3. Why is an omnipotent, all good being a logical solution for a very flawed and imperfect reality? You introduce a perfect creator, and then come up with a convoluted rationalization for why the universe is imperfect. Following Occam's Razor, would it not be a simpler and more logical solution to conclude that the creator(s) of the universe, if real, is/are very powerful but not perfect, partially good and partially evil (or simply ammoral), much like the universe itself?
4. Tying into all the points above, where does salvation fit into this? Or the afterlife? Even if the universe must be explained by intelligent design (which it does not), "salvation" and life after death seem like random additions for little children scared of the dark.
Perhaps this post is what one calls a "Red Herring".
The only thing the watchmaker arguement refers to is: where you have a watch, there must be a watchmaker.
Nothing more, nothing less. The rest of the OP is pure opinion on the part of the poster.
More like if a watch exists there must be a watchmaker. If no watchs exist then there is no watchmaker.
Ok. Time to look at Paley's watchmaker analogy.
In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there. (...) There must have existed, at some time, and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers, who formed [the watch] for the purpose which we find it actually to answer; who comprehended its construction, and designed its use. (...) Every indication of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater or more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation.
— William Paley Natural Philosophy 1802)
Since I do not set traps, I will say right away that I am going to point out that Paley's arguments distinguishes between natural objects such as a stone - which he does see as existing - without a watchmaker having put it there, and an obviously constructed object such as a watch ("But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground....There must have existed, at some time, and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers, who formed [the watch]")
in the middle of a lot of existing things which did not need a watchmaker. ("how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever:")
So the argument is you have an existing object which is not a watch then the object did not need a watchmaker.
op I did not mean to sound like you were that way off You bring up an excellent question. My response is more along a non-theistic line.
Whenever we have the discussion regarding abiogensis we must remember that throughout the universe, the building blocks for life are present. They have been present, formed in carbon chains sine the big bang, scattered outward and deposited here and there. No "creator" is required for this. So for having a blind watchmaker, well, if evolution is the watchmaker, then yes evolution is blind, and as for having a watch, well, Again, evolution was the watchmaker, the universe was the creator, and the watch is a blind product of random protien and carbon chains that probably exist elsewhere too, because in the vastness of the universe, given the 14 billion years of moving and shaking and stirring, then yes, these chemicals do react and morph into life. We are all the proof which is needed .
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A helpful suggestion. Take it or leave it....
