How Come Holy Books Are So Powerful? (atheist, Islam, bible)

[ptsum]

You know, if people took the time to read their sacred book, and may be surprised to find out which really written within those pages and a lot of evangelical and fundamentalist may find out just how wrong they are. It would not be surprising to see a lot of people who read that sacred book, turn away from it.

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by rifleman

Smolley's? Wow! I'm impressed! And for those of you who want to "Read up" on another world, here it i! Another "holy book", but this one full of undeniable relationships & facts and, doggone it, the truth. As well, it's hardly the one and only such reference book.

AS well, it's co-supported by many others like it, and it produce factual and dependable results when it's used as it was intended. Not as a promulgator of ignorance and blindered faith.

That is, if you are of that mental persuasion! Thx, Woodrow.

Smoley's four combined tables for engineers, architects, and students by C. K. Smoley, E. R. Smoley, N. G. Smoley - New, Rare & Used Books Online at Alibris Marketplace

I go back to the days of Slipsticks (slide rules, Logrithms and Smolleys) spent 15 years in the field of Structual Designing, had to earn a living and support 3 kids while I was working towards what I wanted to do.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

Remember historically the religious were not even ABLE to read the texts... kept as they were in languages like latin that only the educated elite at the time were able to read. Yet religion survived for decades with this enforced ignorance on the flock of the contents of the books in question. So it should not be SO unbelievable to you that that ignorance continues today by people who claim to be religious. Reading the text simply is not a pre-requisite of being a Christian etc. etc.

It's very interesting to note, in this regard, that those sects who proclaim the "verbal and plenary inspiration of scripture" (the idea that the Bible is literally factually accurate down to word choices and all its statements) tend to hold the Bible up as the perfect way for god to reveal himself to mankind -- they see it as a black and white, incontrovertible guideook. Yet, in view of the point you've just made, how impressive is, this, really?

The truth is that most humans, for most of human history, have had zero access to this book in the first place. They had only passages spoon fed to them (usually with a particular interpretive spin) by the clergy / priesthood. There's even an OT passage where the scriptures were publicly recited in full to the assembled Jews of the diaspora who then proceeded to tear their clothes in repentance when they realized they had not been following god's laws since time out of mind. This graphically illustrates the utter rarity of Joe Believer actually knowing what's even IN the blasted book. When you look at it this way, an inspired holy book starts to look pretty unimpressive as a way to communicate critical data to your beloved creatures. Since god is allegedly all powerful it would be no problem at all for him to simply "bake in" all that information to people's brains before they're born -- that would be infinitely more effective.

But it gets worse if you bother to think about it even a little more. Consider the supposed mechanism of inspiration -- here is how it worked at least up to the invention of the printing press:

God ==> Human writer ==> Scribe / copyist ==> More Scribe / copyists ==> [Optional translator] ==> Clergy ==> Filter of doctrine / selective reading ==> Listener ==> Filter of listener's intellectual or educational limitations, prejudices, and fears ==> Listener's "understanding"

It's no wonder that various Jewish and Christian traditions are fractured into zillions of sects and that no one really agrees on exactly what the heck it all means.

Even today you still have most of this going on:

God ==> Human writer ==> Scribe / copyist ==> More Scribe / copyists ==> [Optional translator] ==> Reader ==> Filter of reader's intellectual or educational limitations, prejudices, and fears and the influence of clergy, upbringing, commentaries, etc ==> Reader's "understanding"

It's a terribly messy and inexact system that, if it were true, directly results in millions of people needlessly burning in hell or at least needlessly suffering in this life, if you're not into a literal hell.

The above doesn't even consider interpretive systems and judgment calls about how literally or figuratively to take this or that passage. Whether, as they say, you see "ten commandments" or "ten suggestions" ;-)

--Bob

[Checkered24]

Originally Posted by ptsum

You know, if people took the time to read their sacred book, and may be surprised to find out which really written within those pages and a lot of evangelical and fundamentalist may find out just how wrong they are. It would not be surprising to see a lot of people who read that sacred book, turn away from it.

Of those who read, some will believe and others will not. I know a number of evangelical fundamentalists, and most of them do regularly read scripture. Doing so grows and encourages their faith. It doesn't diminish it. I also know many others who have read it, and range from athiests, to anywhere in between.

It all depends on what people want to see when they read it.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Checkered24

Of those who read, some will believe and others will not. I know a number of evangelical fundamentalists, and most of them do regularly read scripture. Doing so grows and encourages their faith. It doesn't diminish it. I also know many others who have read it, and range from athiests, to anywhere in between.

It all depends on what people want to see when they read it.

I agree that it's possible, if you read scripture with a forced "correct" interpretive framework in mind, and if you have fully bought in / invested in that framework, and if nothing much comes up in your life to challenge that worldview / perspective, then reading scripture will strengthen your belief rather than weaken it. And this is not a particularly big set of "ifs" for a given person at a given moment in their lives; it's probably, for fundamentalists, more the rule than the exception.

That said, I feel that for an ardent believer, deep acquaintance with scripture is their only hope for a "way out". The set of "ifs" I mention are more far-fetched over the course of one's life -- life has a nasty way of popping up with some ghastly assault of tragedy, comedy or both that show what a leaky abstraction a Biblical worldview is (particularly a conservative fundie Biblical interpretation), and, to the extent the person has a working brain, constantly grappling with the logical inconsistencies of scripture is, over extended time, like Chinese water torture. It wears down one's obstinate attachment to pet ideas.

In my theist days I attended a Bible Institute and was a very involved lay person; my knowledge of scripture and of evangelical dogma and apologetics was / is way above average although this far on my recollection of such things is starting to rust a bit. It was this very commitment and knowledge, however, coupled with life experience, that eventually created the cognitive dissonance that dragged me, kicking and screaming, out of theism. Beyond a certain point, I just couldn't take it anymore.

[rifleman]

The reason that any enduring book or writing endures is clearly that it must have some elements of useful truth. The bible obviously has some good ideas on "How to do good, make friends and influence people" sections. Otherwise it's prophet pedlars, those merry bands of minstrel men who travelled the land scaring people into spiritual obedience (oh, and making money and their evening meals, lest the all-powerful and vengeful God might, you know, smite those who didn't want to share their limited grog and medium-rare lamb shanks...).

However, as a book of absolute truths Trimac, in it's entirety, you are correct: the bible has been wholly oversold. Far too many of it's so-called established, no questions asked truths of old have been summarily dismissed, disproven and replaced with far more logical, and oh yeah, fully reproducible facts. Things like the age of our planet, of the universe, or the origin of geological landforms (no, the Grand Canyon was NOT formed in just a few days by the rapid draining of The Great Noah-tic Fludd! Technically and Ecologically impossible, and also time-wise, completely improbable.) have been illuminated beyond any ancient mythology.

This does not eliminate any value of the bible, but it most surely limits it's technical utility and it's absolute list of literal facts.

I truly wish more Christians would read and understand the bible in the way you mention. This is the only use I've ever gotten from it as youth, with our weekly Sunday bible appreciation/mind-alteration & obedience training sessions. As long as our youthful and hyper-zealous, but always smiling and condescending young woman SS teacher didn't get into God as The Great Holy Roller in Charge, capable of doing everything with a simple twist of His all-engaging wrist, it was useful I suppose. For my youthful age and learning. However, I feel I no longer need further book-based guidance in living my life. Common sense and a mature outlook allows us adults to face up to life without constant consultation with a fanciful and ancient language book, but obviously some do want and need that very information.

Many can't seem to live without reference to these books. This, to me, demos a sorry state of complete reliance on ancient writings. Especially when ministers often take extreme liberties in their readings. Such liberal interpretations often try to relate to modern living situations, where the bible's original authors certainly never could have imagined such 21st Century situations in mind. That's where the bible and the Qu'ran also fall flat, "thuddo!", when you take their very antique ideas and absolutes to be absolute and literal.

[Checkered24]

Originally Posted by mordant

I agree that it's possible, if you read scripture with a forced "correct" interpretive framework in mind, and if you have fully bought in / invested in that framework, and if nothing much comes up in your life to challenge that worldview / perspective, then reading scripture will strengthen your belief rather than weaken it. And this is not a particularly big set of "ifs" for a given person at a given moment in their lives; it's probably, for fundamentalists, more the rule than the exception.

That said, I feel that for an ardent believer, deep acquaintance with scripture is their only hope for a "way out". The set of "ifs" I mention are more far-fetched over the course of one's life -- life has a nasty way of popping up with some ghastly assault of tragedy, comedy or both that show what a leaky abstraction a Biblical worldview is (particularly a conservative fundie Biblical interpretation), and, to the extent the person has a working brain, constantly grappling with the logical inconsistencies of scripture is, over extended time, like Chinese water torture. It wears down one's obstinate attachment to pet ideas.

In my theist days I attended a Bible Institute and was a very involved lay person; my knowledge of scripture and of evangelical dogma and apologetics was / is way above average although this far on my recollection of such things is starting to rust a bit. It was this very commitment and knowledge, however, coupled with life experience, that eventually created the cognitive dissonance that dragged me, kicking and screaming, out of theism. Beyond a certain point, I just couldn't take it anymore.

Intersting path out of theism for you!

I guess it depends on the level of investment. You are by far more studied in it than I am. (I have read the bible, and have done some reading and study on theology, but am more a novice than anything).

The fundamentalists I know are 110% into it. There is no argument or evidence that a layperson could present to them in contrary to anything in the bible which would sway their opinion. Some, may even be so believing that they would even accept some deviation, if it wasn't too much deviation.

(Example, some insist on a strict literal interpretation of creation, others will accept some limited alegorical interpretation, such as the time period)

Ultimately, what I see from them is a lot of wanting to beleive what scripture says, because if one thing is not true, pulling that thread will threaten to unravel the whole quilt!

This seems incredibly important in my conversations with fundamentalists too. They cannot accept a scientific viewpoint on something like evolution, because if Genesis is not literally true, then the rest may not be either... and since they live their life on other more relevant (to them) aspects of the bible being God's truth, they cannot accept even alegorical interpretations to things.

(Yet, they still pick and choose what and how they beleive. One passage they will "define" it's meaning based on study of the original languages meanings, while others they will argue should be read as is, ignoring the original language or context it was written).

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

I'll take your word for it!

Do not ever do that. Go check the facts of things I espouse yourself. Never take my word for it. I could be wrong.

However as I said historically people COULD NOT read their own holy texts as they were maintained in languages they could not read like Latin. Even masses in many Christian denominations were done in Mass to keep the flock ignorant of their content. Some think that translation into English of the texts was the worst mistake the church ever made as it gave the congregation the ability to read the texts themselves and shifted the power base.

But the fact is the religions survived all that time when the flock COULD NOT read the text. So it should not be so shocking to you to find that those religions survive today when they simply DO NOT bother to read it.

Originally Posted by Trimac20

I find it strange that someone would bother to go to church but not read the Bible

I used to too but not any more. Daniel Dennett is good on this point. It appears many people who call themselves Christian actually do not believe it. They just act like they do or claim they do to others. Many people, as Dennett puts it "Believe in Belief" which is that they themselves do not actually believe any of it... but they think maintaining that belief structure is good anyway.

So it might seem strange to you that people claiming to be people of faith do not even study their own holy text. But it stops being strange when you consider one simple possibility.... Not many of them _actually_ believe any of it.

Seen in that light it suddenly stops seeming strange and all makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by Trimac20

'be as a child and read it with an open mind'

I agree with the statement as it is written. However unfortunately it seems most theists who actually say those words actually mean "Read it assuming it is true" which is the exact opposite of what they are actually asking you to do with the words they said. Too many people think "Be open minded" means "Agree what I am saying is correct and go from there". Even the Bible itself says this when it tells you to "Seek and you shall find". They are all literally promoting conformation bias at you and confirmation bias is NOT open mindedness. It is the exact opposite of open mindedness.

[Trimac20]

One thing about the idea of the Bible being God's chosen vehicle to share his message with the world. He must have known that the majority of humanity throughout history have been illiterate: only recently has world literacy surpassed 50%. Maybe the Catholics have a point, the Church was there to disseminate the contents of God's Holy word to the masses through sermons and rules. Much of it was passed down orally. Hence a general unfamiliarity with the Bible in it's entirety. Hebrews recite the Torah, Muslims the Qu'ran and other holy scriptures. It seems peculiar God would really rely solely on a book of words if most people couldn't read it. A large reason that missionaries were so big on getting people to read and write was so that they could read the Bible.

I will respond to other comments later, as I don't have time right now.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

One thing about the idea of the Bible being God's chosen vehicle to share his message with the world. He must have known that the majority of humanity throughout history have been illiterate:

Yes, Hitchens before he died used to comment on this issue. He found it surprising that when god chose to visit human kind in the form of Christ or to visit people like Moses he chose to do it in one of the most illiterate areas of the world instead of... say... china where they could read and write at the time. He also found it odd that he would lead the people of moses a merry chase for so long before having them settle down in the one area of the east that had no oil.